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Deadlock Clock: 29th Jul '13 11:59 PM
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Ambiguous Name: With This Herring get usage counts

The Truth Troper
I've seen a lot of wicks to With This Herring, most of them in the context of weaponized fish. I think part of the problem is it's name. Because, you know, a herring is a fish. People must be taking the trope name literally.

That said, I'm not sure whether to put this under Misuse or Ambiguous Name. Either way, it needs help.
 2 Septimus Heap, Mon, 10th Jun '13 6:10:59 AM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Ambiguous Name I would choose, since anecdotal evidence of misuse isn't really enough for a Misuse label.

I personally find this name rather weird.

The Truth Troper
Yeah, I probably should have went with Ambiguous Name from the getgo.

Anyway, the damage is done. My point still stands, though, the name just doesn't add up. The examples of said misuse, they are Right for the Wrong Reasons. I think we need a clearer name for this trope.
 4 Spark 9, Mon, 10th Jun '13 6:41:17 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Okay, so where the trope namer is about a task being impossible in a silly way, the trope is actually about the hero being underequipped for his job. That's... not a good combo.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 5 Septimus Heap, Mon, 10th Jun '13 6:41:50 AM from Muggio Valley, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Huh? I do not get what your last paragraph is saying.

The Truth Troper
... There was nothing to get. Nevermind that second paragraph.

Basically, what I'm trying to say, is this name implies fish-slapping or something like that, and we need to be clearer about it. It doesn't help that the trope namer doesn't even quite follow the trope itself.
I've never seen this misused for actual fish-slapping. You're going to have to do a wick check to show misuse for something with this many wicks.
The Truth Troper
Well, if you want a specific example of what I've seen, Castle Crashers links to the page with a rather literal context. I'm pretty sure there was a time a few instances of Scout's fish melee weapon being mentioned linked to it, though I'm not seeing any of those anymore, as of late.

Nevertheless, I suppose it's not enough to warrant a Misused label, like I thought. But the name is still ambiguous, if not outright misleading. Which is largely why I wish I had just gone ahead with the "Ambiguous Name" label. "With This Herring" seems to imply fish, even though the description itself almost has nothing to do with fish.
That's not how you prove misuse. Go to the related to page (here), pick fifty random wicks, find the trope on the page, and figure out whether it's correct, misuse, or unclear. Then post the results here.
 10 kiukiuclk, Thu, 20th Jun '13 11:13:35 AM from 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693 Relationship Status: My TiMER is ticking
Name made me think of Red Herring myself.

Don't think anyone would argue with this being an Ambiguous Name.

But the question is whether or not it's working. It has almost 300 wicks and over 400 inbounds, so it seems to be fine. And again, I've never seen this misused.
 12 Another Duck, Thu, 20th Jun '13 3:27:36 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
I'm going to say no to rename until misuse is proven.

edited 20th Jun '13 3:27:53 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
 13 kiukiuclk, Thu, 20th Jun '13 4:33:22 PM from 3.1415926535897932384626433832795028841971693 Relationship Status: My TiMER is ticking
There are only 7 edits on the history page, (Earliest is May first of this year), so I think that means it was renamed rather recently. That explains why I remember seeing this under another name and couldn't find it(I wondered if it was a duplicate). [lol]

I searched around, but wasn't able to find what the old name was. Since the name was changed recently, I suppose that means it probably shouldn't happen again for a while?

Edit: there is a redirect from With A Herring...but I don't think that is it, as it's almost the same thing. It's also probably worth noting that the page quote the name seems to come from isn't even an example of it.

edited 20th Jun '13 4:38:15 PM by kiukiuclk

Edit history got borked recently, that's all it means. This is an old trope.
Can anyone show any evidence of actual misuse?

If there is clear misuse, it should be cleaned up, and if it's a serious problem, then a rename should be considered, but I'm just not seeing any.

 16 Larkmarn, Wed, 26th Jun '13 8:21:52 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
I doubt there's much, honestly. "Herring" is a very, very weird term to use in any context other than Red Herring. I don't see someone looking at this trope and thinking "Gee, herring. What a perfectly generic fish; surely there's no other meaning to that."

 17 Spark 9, Wed, 26th Jun '13 8:33:51 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
For what it's worth, the thread starter alludes to this trope being misused for "weaponized fish". Perhaps he can substantiate his assertion?
Special trousers. Very heroic.
[up][up]Yeah, of all possible placeholder nouns, "herring" might well be the worst.

edited 26th Jun '13 8:34:31 AM by AmyGdala

 19 Larkmarn, Wed, 26th Jun '13 8:46:42 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
[up] Well, it's a double-edged sword. Because herring has existent meaning, I doubt the trope sees much misuse since anyone using it would check the page to see what it is. Moreover, there's not much that it can realistically be misused as.

That said, the name is just obtuse and non-informative.

That could be why misuse is a bad standard for obtuse names. Sure, people may not be misusing it, but it's remarkable that they're using it at all, much less using it for their own definitions. The real problem may be underuse, which is impossible to prove because we can never know how much use a better name would have attracted. The best we can do is choose an intuitive and appropriate name.

 21 Willbyr, Fri, 26th Jul '13 6:07:57 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Clock is set.
 22 Larkmarn, Fri, 26th Jul '13 6:31:03 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
I say we let this die. There's no evidence of misuse, and while the name is obtuse and not clear, it's got 294 wicks so clearly people are using it.

Also, the folders appear to be broken, so I'm gonna move video games to a subpage and see if that fixes it. (not really a TRS issue, but since the thread's open...)

edited 26th Jul '13 8:14:36 AM by Discar

 24 Willbyr, Tue, 30th Jul '13 3:54:26 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Clock's up; locking for inactivity.
The system doesn't know you right now, so no post button for you.
You need to Get Known to get one of those.
Total posts: 24
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