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Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#1: May 20th 2013 at 8:07:41 PM

Similar to the other Napoleon thread, how would Hitler win Europe? [not the world, Europe], consider this right after the invasion of Poland. How could Hitler win?

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Natasel Since: Nov, 2010
#2: May 20th 2013 at 9:56:51 PM

Knowing how it turns out, I shoot myself in the head and spare the world the grief.

edited 20th May '13 9:57:47 PM by Natasel

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#3: May 21st 2013 at 12:56:21 AM

As a thought exercise, I've got to say the same thing that I'd say to le petit corporal. Don't invade Russia! At least not until you've got everyone else mopped up first.

For other suggestions. Give the Kriegsmarine some teeth. Not just the wolf packs but their surface warfare component as well and let them develop their carriers (and tell Goering to shut up when he complains about the diversion of fighters). They're going to be going up against the Royal Navy if you ever want those dreams of invading Britain are to succeed.

As a general policy, eliminate the policy of Right Hand vs Left Hand. It doesn't create strength, it breeds inefficiencies.

You are not as good a military strategists as you think you are. Let your generals and admirals do their jobs and stop micromanaging.

Streamline your production processes. Your Panzers are indeed formidable, but you'd be able to field more of them if their was more standardised parts and you weren't constantly tinkering with the designs. This will be important if you ignore point 1.

Also, stop trying to develop wonder weapons. They only sap resources that could be better used elsewhere.

imadinosaur Since: Oct, 2011
#4: May 21st 2013 at 2:51:54 AM

I'm pretty sure it's impossible; the best he could do would be to stop before invading Poland and settle for a 'greater Germany' type thing.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#5: May 21st 2013 at 7:15:35 AM

How could Hitler win?

First thing's first, do not I repeat DO NOT declare war on the United States on December 8 1941. Let the Japanese hang themselves. Hitler declaring war on the US basically made FDR do his finest Light Yagami impression complete with "Just as Planned". (FDR was hoping Hitler would do something like that since he wanted to get involved in Europe right away but had absolutely ZERO popular support to do so even when it was apparent that the Japanese had just wiped out the US Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor.)

Second thing, do not delay Barbarossa by one month. That gave the Soviets enough time to do things like re-organize their leadership and begin fielding the T-34 tank. If Barbarossa were held to schedule instead of the month later it happened the Wehrmacht would have caught the Red Army in the middle of a Stalinist purge and reorganization rather than post-purge. People like Chuikov, and Khrushchev would have emerged to leadership AFTER the Wehrmacht had taken the industrial West of Russia.

Third, give the Kriegsmarine amphibious capabilities so as to actually go through with Operation Sealion. The Brits were on the ropes in 1940 and if the Germans had a competent navy and amphib component they could have landed before 1941 and overrun the British Isles before 1942.

Fourth, fully mechanize and modernize the Heer before commencing hostilities. (There were still a few horse drawn outfits in 1940.)

There are several other things but that's the starters.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#6: May 21st 2013 at 8:11:57 AM

Do not be a dick to occupied countries. You even made Polish fascists hate your guts. And Soviet population hated Stalin more than disliked Germans till you started clearing land for future colonization.

My President is Funny Valentine.
Belisaurius Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts from Big Blue Nowhere Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts
#7: May 21st 2013 at 10:29:57 AM

First, don't bother challenging the British at sea. The Spanish tried it, Napoleon tried it, hell even America tried it and it never ended well. Rather, develop ship killing weapons for airplanes. The Fritz X was a fantastic weapon but also a complex one. It tended to over penetrate and the radio control system was vulnerable to jamming. Simplify the design, eliminating the radio control and lightening the overall warhead. Instead of a radio, try a wire guided system similar to a TOW missile.Of course there's no way a wire is going to reach all the way down but even a couple hundred meters to correct your aim would help.

Second, sell factory parts to Italy and Hungary. Both Italy and Hungary are weak players but they are the only european allies Germany has. Japan is too far to be much good. Do sell the secret to making oil out of coal to Japan though. This should alleviate the strain if American cuts oil exports to Japan.

Third, while the soviets are busy with Finland, make a play for the black sea oil wells. Approach Finland about an alliance and, if they accept, use them as a staging point to capture St. Petersburg. Without a European port, Russia's only option for foreign aid is the trans-siberian rail road. With a huge chunk of the red army tied up in Finland it should be child's play to blitz to the oil fields. If Italy and Hungary can get naval superiority (Which they had for a time) they can supply the army through the black sea and Istanbul. Let hungry take control of the oil fields, it's too far from Germany to protect anyway (Do see that the rights to drill are held by a German company, though). Now that you've got both St.Petersburg and the Black sea oil fields you can seize Stalingrad in one gigantic pincer maneuver at a national scale.

Meanwhile, have the Battle of Britain focus solely on ports or airfields. Infact, don't use heavy bombers on land base targets. I know this sounds a bit bizzare but bear with me. British air power can slaughter heavy bombers but light bombers like the stuka dive bomber can hold it's own in a dogfight after it drops it's bombs. Focus on eliminating airfields, railways, and electrical lines. Airfields are an obvious target simply because they are your primary threat. Kill enough pilots and blast enough aircraft and the RAF would never get the breathing space it needs. Railways are harder to hit than rail stations but they are also harder to defend. Furthermore, a train might not realize that a section of rail is damaged until it's too late to stop. Bombing phone and power lines would cut down on British defensive coordination. Consequently, if you blew up the phone lines to the radar towers you'd end up negating them even if you didn't know they were important.

Of the thousands you arrest and send to concentration camps in poland, take a couple hundred of the most docile and innocent looking and release them with an apology and a T-shirt. This makes you look more reasonable. Then use propaganda to pain the Russians as horrible, horrible monsters who will do terrible things to the Polish people. Not so unreasonable seeing as soviets did do horrible things to the poles.

As far as research goes, keep developing aircraft when you're winning. Infact, accelerate R&D efforts when times are good. People knew about sloped armor for a long time. The CSS Virginia had sloped armor during the US civil war and the french Schneider CA 1 also had it in the 1910s. There should be no reason that the Panzer 3 and 4 to lack even partial sloped armor. The St G 44 would give german troops a huge advantage over Russian troops but it was delayed, mostly because Hitler didn't like how it looked.

CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#8: May 21st 2013 at 10:44:49 AM

[up]Funny thing, when I played Hungary in Hearts of Iron 2 I did take over oil wells of USSR with it (along with Ukraine and Caucasian Mountains). cool Then I conquered Iran for lulz and more oil.

My President is Funny Valentine.
Belisaurius Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts from Big Blue Nowhere Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Artisan of Auspicious Artifacts
#9: May 21st 2013 at 11:11:01 AM

[up]Likewise, I've always been able to steamroll Russia as Germany. Which is weird considering how badly the reich got trashed at Stalingrad

T448Eight XBOX: Turn on. XBOX: On. XBOX: Buy me a PS 4 from In Your Living Room Since: Jan, 2013
XBOX: Turn on. XBOX: On. XBOX: Buy me a PS 4
#10: May 21st 2013 at 5:30:16 PM

Don't torture/maim a couple million Europeans, eh?

edited 21st May '13 5:30:46 PM by T448Eight

The world isn't ready for giant T4 combustion. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GbpGiYmBSs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKm9
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#11: May 21st 2013 at 8:15:51 PM

The Fritz X was a fantastic weapon but also a complex one. It tended to over penetrate and the radio control system was vulnerable to jamming. Simplify the design, eliminating the radio control and lightening the overall warhead. Instead of a radio, try a wire guided system similar to a TOW missile.

Bad idea. The TOW missile makes a good tankbuster (or did until the 1990s when newer better stuff really started putting the hurt on it) but an extremely poor anti-ship weapon. Three reasons why and one's a dealbreaker:

1) TOW like all wire-guided missiles has an absolute finite range much shorter than any other rocket or gun fired weapon. TOW II for instance has a maximum range of about 3700 meters before the wire separates from the tube. By comparison the Hellfire missile with its radar guidance has a range of 5 km or more depending on target (buildings obviously get the maximum), weather conditions, and line of sight. The KH-22 anti-ship missile for instance has a range in excess of 100 kilometers and needs no wire guidance. Which means in the era of World War II technology wire guidance is a liability because its short range means shipborne AA guns like the Bofors 40mm will shred the fuck out of your launch platform long before you kill the ship.

2) Wire-guidance is finicky. Unless you have laser designation data, TV guidance or a targeting camera you can have very poor combat performance. The AT-3 Sagger (9K11 Malyutka) ATGM employed in the 1960s was really only combat effective if the enemy didn't suspect it. In 1973 it busted a whole bunch of Israeli tanks but like American experiences in Vietnam about the same time they found if you fired on the AT-3 operators even if you didn't hit them, accuracy tumbled like a brick and you often ended up with the missile hitting nowhere near the target. Just imagine a Fritz operator on a German plane trying to manually command a missile via wire guidance while the plane has to evade AA fire and fighter envelopes.

3) Wire guided missiles are slow and require constant watch of the missile. You'll be exposing yourself for a damn long time in terms of AA window. That's the reason why TOW fell out of favor and was replaced by Hellfire as the primary heli-launched tankbuster missile of the US Army and Marine Corps. A Cobra or Apache could fire a laser or radar guided missile at a target and then pop out of the AA envelope. (Laser-guided worked this way if you had spotters lasing the target rather than the Apache doing the lasing.) You can't do the same thing with TOW or missiles like it. Hellfire flies a lot faster than TOW as well hitting the target in less time.

edited 21st May '13 8:17:26 PM by MajorTom

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
Avenuewriter Destroyer of worlds. from On my way out of this universe Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Destroyer of worlds.
#12: May 22nd 2013 at 2:58:54 AM

Use dragons.

Is not impressed.
Minister Do Not Go Gentle Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Do Not Go Gentle
#13: May 22nd 2013 at 3:06:30 AM

[up] Game of Thrones is seeping into fucking everything these days.

Anyway, my response? Fix your fucking economy.

It's your God, they're your rules, you go to hell." - Mark Twain
Avenuewriter Destroyer of worlds. from On my way out of this universe Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Destroyer of worlds.
#14: May 22nd 2013 at 3:32:05 AM

[up]

Actually it was more of a case of Instant Awesome Just Add Dragons than Game of Thrones. My first choice was a bear cavalry

Is not impressed.
Parable State of Mind from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
State of Mind
#15: May 22nd 2013 at 9:01:37 AM

Use dragons.

I actually read a book that did built up on "What would happen if the Germans used dragons to fight in WWII?"

Answer: They still lost. Though at least one dragon made off with a lot of priceless artwork for her collection.

"What a century this week has been." - Seung Min Kim
Archereon Ave Imperator from Everywhere. Since: Oct, 2010
Ave Imperator
#16: May 25th 2013 at 8:44:39 PM

Develop the atom bomb before everyone else.

This is a signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
Natasel Since: Nov, 2010
#17: May 26th 2013 at 2:38:17 AM

[up] But that would mean actually listening to Jew Scientists like Albert Einstein. tongue

"Jew Science" was anathema in Nazi Germany.

Parable State of Mind from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Holding out for a hero
State of Mind
#18: May 27th 2013 at 12:47:22 AM

Or at least don't set up your system so that all your various underling are actively sabotaging each other so their own pet projects can get priority.

German tech was miles ahead of the Allies, but Goering, Himmler, and all them were to busy stealing each others work force or resources that all that stuff never got produced in effective numbers.

"What a century this week has been." - Seung Min Kim
AnSTH Lawful Evil Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#19: May 27th 2013 at 1:10:16 AM

You're allied with Japan right? Get some ninjas over there to assassinate the enemy leadership.

But that's a story for another time.
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#20: May 27th 2013 at 2:21:39 AM

Don't ally with Japan. They cannot provide any aid whatsover. Freaking Slovakia is more useful!

My President is Funny Valentine.
imadinosaur Since: Oct, 2011
#21: May 27th 2013 at 4:13:27 AM

German tech was miles ahead of the Allies

[citation needed]

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.
Natasel Since: Nov, 2010
#22: May 27th 2013 at 5:18:05 AM

[up] He probably meant the cool stuff Nazis had.

Rockets, super sized tanks, performance enhancing chocolate tongue....

Unfortunately he may not have considered radar (Brit?) and the atomic bomb (USA).

CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#23: May 27th 2013 at 6:19:46 AM

Yeah, Nazi stuff was Awesome but Impractical. For example, instead of producing more Panthers when issues with early models got solved, they were bent on producing Tigers. More Panthers would decrease gap in tank numbers between Axis and Soviets/Allies, and they were better than Shermans and as good as T/34 (for which they were meant to be a counter).

Soviets sometimes had weird ideas (like flying tank), but they pragmatically stick to boring, but sturdy and good designs

edited 27th May '13 6:20:46 AM by CaptainKatsura

My President is Funny Valentine.
MajorTom Eye'm the cutest! Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
#24: May 27th 2013 at 6:52:36 AM

German tech was miles ahead of the Allies

Nope. Sure they had the STG-44 but German war technology was in many ways behind the Allies, particularly the Americans and Russians.

The best fighter plane of the war the P-51 took its first flight before the US entered the war. It wasn't some radical miracle production of 1944. The best rifle of the war the M1 Garand was already in full service with the US Army in 1941 and in 1939 it was becoming very widespread in use. Then you had radar which was in full service in Britain and the US. And proximity fuzed AA/artillery shells which was something the Axis never got to use on the battlefield. Then you had things like the Gun Data Computer and the Kerrison Predictor*

, neither of which the Axis had access to. (Though the Japanese would begin widely fielding early targeting computers in late 1944.) Then there's nuclear weapons. And personal radios. (Only the Germans had any serious attempt at large scale man portable radios. Even then their use was less used and less effective than their US counterparts.) And HEAT anti-tank weapons. (The US first developed them with the M1 Bazooka and the 22mm rifle grenade for the M1 rifle grenade launcher.)

And that's not everything.

"Allah may guide their bullets, but Jesus helps those who aim down the sights."
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#25: May 27th 2013 at 12:31:11 PM

Even famous German coding machine Enigma wasn't something too hard to overcome. Polish mathematicians broke the code in 1930s, long before the war (not that it helped much since both Germans and Soviets attacked us). Though, it must be noted that our mathematicians and scientists were world class (Lwow school of mathematics laid foundation to modern logic, and its member Stanisław Ulam together with Teller created the first hydrogen bomb).

This is reflected in Hearts of Iron 2 by the fact that Poland's only tech teams that are on par with major powers are those that can research cryptology and nuclear research. Ulam is one of the best, if not best (he has 8 in skill, but he has more specialities than his 9 rated counterparts, so he does research faster in the long run) nuclear research team, so capture tech teams feature when playing Germany is kind of cheating. He puts Germany's Heisenberg to shame in the game cool

edited 27th May '13 12:34:14 PM by CaptainKatsura

My President is Funny Valentine.

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