Needs Help: White Haired Pretty Girl

Total posts: [143]
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26 helterskelter4th May 2013 06:32:23 PM , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
[up] But we haven't decided what's going to happen, really. At the very least we need to open up a page action crowner before we get gung-ho about changing the description and what not.
Right. We might change it some but the description was never the issue. The issue is that this is not just about having white hair and being pretty. It's about having a supernatural quality about her. The name is the problem I'd say also because it's a snowclone of the "White-Haired Pretty Boy" that I hear is an established term in anime circles.
Wasn't white haired pretty boy a snowclown spawned off this trope? I seem to recall that coming up in it's thread.

I'd also say the reason pretty girl gets brought up is that it's ultra rare to see a non-beutiful or non-female example. They're virtually all pretty females, (in fact i can't think of a non-female example tbh, but they probably exist somwhere). Now weather that makes it valid is a totally seperate matter, but thats probabvly the real reason behind it.

edited 4th May '13 8:43:33 PM by Carl99

29 InsanityPrelude5th May 2013 01:14:06 AM , Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
There were at least a few male examples in the WHPB sandbox (if it still exists.)

Edit: Indeed it does.

edited 5th May '13 1:14:16 AM by InsanityPrelude

30 SeptimusHeap5th May 2013 06:25:59 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
WHPB is older than WHPG. I reiterate my support for a rename/redefinition and my opposition to any gender specific name, as the trope is not gender specific and a name gender specific is going to attract disuse.
If White-Haired Pretty Boy spawned off this trope then it's because they took the pre-existing WHPB term and made the White-Haired Pretty Girl first. Sackett in post 289 said that "White Haired Pretty Boy" is a common anime term. This one is the snowclone.
32 helterskelter5th May 2013 12:20:19 PM , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
@Carl: I don't think that is entirely valid. Most characters in fiction tend to be really good looking, and we know (since there was an entire trope dedicated to them), that it's not focused on women, either. There would need to be some other quality except good looking to make this a trope.

Anyway, most people do seem to be in agreement that this trope is naturally about white hair = mystical quality. Perhaps we should have a page action crowner between cut, keep, redefine as this?
I know that, my point is that is it's allmost exclusivlly assosiated with wite haired good loocking females, (which givent he wiki has 1441 wicks for this, and according to the sandbox only 8 are male, that makes this a nearly entierly female based). Do we need to do more than clarify the description. I'm not oppossed to a rename if thats what the community wants, but i question weather it's necessery.

What is definetly needed IMO is a better description to clarify the fact that it is not merely magical qualities. And a purging of wicks that are just examples of people with white hair.

Leaving the name as it is, is no diffrent than not changing all the king/queen/prince/princess tropes to gender nuetral, (as an example, i'msure there are others). Virtually everyone of those tropes that dosen't posses a seperate opossitte gender varient of the trope has a rare male/female exception to the normal gender. I see no issue given the low number of male exampels with treating said examples as rare exceptions.
34 helterskelter5th May 2013 04:47:38 PM , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
But...the only trope here is that it is just about magical qualities.

We had a trope dedicated solely for males about being pretty. That one tried to be just about evilness and white hair, but it didn't work because of the name and was constantly being misused. And I 100% promise you, if we had a trope for 'pretty person with this hair color', you'd see thousands of wicks for each and every one. The fact of the matter is that the media—particularly anime, where you're going to see white hair the most—favors beautiful people. Pretty + hair color isn't a trope. All the tropes we have similar to that one have their own unique connotations—Everyone Loves Blondes, Heroes Want Redheads, Tall, Dark, and Handsome, Raven Hair, Ivory Skin aren't just "she's pretty and has this hair color". That's not a trope.

The only reason this trope has persisted so long and has so many wicks is precisely because it is so loosely defined and casts such a broad net. Basically, if you do a GIS for "anime purple hair" or any color, you will exclusively find a collection of good looking people.

The reason there are only a few male examples on this page is because we had White-Haired Pretty Boy. All of those examples went there.
WTH are you on about? Your focusing on the pretty when i'm dsmissing it as an add on extra, (for the reason you state, it's nearly allways true).

The trope is about females with white hair that are not quite normal in some way (magical or non-magical). In fact the name is the only thing that mentions looks ironiclly.

My whole point is that given we have a very small number of male examples, a large number of female examples, and we have a standard of allowing gender specific tropes with rare oppossitte gender exceptions being listed as rare exceptions.

Do we need to go to the hassle, (especially given the number of inbound wicks), of messing with the name?

Updating the description and pruning wrong examples is a lot less work and we only have so many resources around here. So given that IS the name a sufficent issue to be worth bothering with. Like i said if we decide it is i'm happy enough to go along with that and put in some of the leg work. I just see it as unecessery since as you point out allmost any female with white hair who isn't an old lady is going to look "pretty", and as i've pointed out there's nothing wrong under existing rules that i can see with the gender specificness of it. As such it looks like a lot of work for no real benefit.

edited 5th May '13 6:06:27 PM by Carl99

36 nrjxll5th May 2013 06:07:40 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
I think the real problem with the name is essentially the same one White-Haired Pretty Boy had: it's purely appearance-focused. What you're arguing for is not merely the "girls with white hair" trope that a literal reading of the name suggests.
37 helterskelter5th May 2013 06:32:00 PM , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
[up][up] First of all, don't be rude.

Let's address this point by point, shall we?

My whole point is that given we have a very small number of male examples

Yes, because it is an Always Female trope at the moment. Of course there are a small number of examples. There was an identically-named male trope and that's where all the male examples went.

Do we need to go to the hassle, (especially given the number of inbound wicks), of messing with the name?

Absolutely. White-Haired Pretty Girl is not the name of a valid trope. All the name implies is that white hair and prettiness makes a trope. It does not. What has been suggested frequently in this thread is to make the trope exclusively about people will white hair who have a mystical, arcane quality about them.

So given that IS the name a sufficent issue to be worth bothering with.

Yes. As I've said thrice now, the reason there are so few male examples is because this trope has been female exclusive for a long time. The trope currently means a female with white hair who is pretty. Keeping the name and changing the trope definition is going to lead to piles and piles of misuse because no one is going to realize there was a change unless they revisit the trope page.

i've pointed out there's nothing wrong under existing rules that i can see with the gender specificness of it.

But there is no gender specificity. Why do you keep saying this? We had a male trope: White-Haired Pretty Boy. That is where all the male examples went or are.

If there is a slight skew towards female examples, I'd argue that's mostly because prettiness is a quality associated with women, and not men. "Pretty boys" are usually exclusive to anime, while "pretty girls", aren't.

edited 5th May '13 6:32:19 PM by helterskelter

White-Haired Pretty Boy was not about male characters that are male and had white hair and where non-normal though. Yes the current trope under discusion claims this to be the case, but it's wrong. Hence why that trope got overhauled.

Also prove that there are lots of male examples not being listed becuase of it being gender specific because the argument your currentlly using can eb applied to any gender specific trope and god knows this place has enough of them.

At the end of the day unless you can prove there are a large number of examples that are male then i see no justification for changing the name. It's accurratte enough if a littile inprecise, (i.e. falls under I Thought It Meant). End of argument as far as i'm concerned.

edited 5th May '13 7:00:23 PM by Carl99

White-Haired Pretty Boy was not about male characters that are male and had white hair and where non-normal though. Yes the current trope under discusion claims this to be the case, but it's wrong. Hence why that trope got overhauled.

Yes, but no one used it like this. Check the sandbox, which was linked earlier. There are a lot of examples on that page that fit this trope.

Also, saying end of argument is kind of against the entire point of this forum.
40 helterskelter5th May 2013 07:38:36 PM , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
White-Haired Pretty Boy was not about male characters that are male and had white hair and where non-normal though.

But neither is this trope at the moment. Right now this trope is only about women with white hair that are pretty. Not to mention WHPB was rampant with misuse. I don't think you understand the fact that this is right now an Always Female trope. People only list female examples because of this. I have no idea what is confusing about this.

Also prove that there are lots of male examples not being listed becuase of it being gender specific

...What? I don't need to prove there are other examples. There is no reason for this to be gender specific. I have no idea how to put this clearer.

White-Haired Pretty Girl is an Always Female trope. The definition of it is that a character is female, pretty, and white-haired (oh and "special"). Literally all examples are going to be female because of this. White-Haired Pretty Boy had a couple more restrictions, but was frequently misused.

If we change the trope, we most certainly have to change the name because it will share the name with a trope that no longer exists. It will contribute to misuse.

At the end of the day unless you can prove there are a large number of examples that are male then i see no justification for changing the name. It's accurratte enough if a littile inprecise, (i.e. falls under I Thought It Meant). End of argument as far as i'm concerned.

Wow. I seriously don't know what to say here.
@Arha: Sorry didn';t mean end of argument liek that. What i meant is assuming i've managed to get my point across i don't see what there is to argue about. I just seem to be having problems with that.

Also in case you haven't been reading i have checked that sandbox, there are 8 examples. The current WHPG page has 1441 inboud Wick's. Thats a small enough discrepancy that i see no argument for nopt treasting it like every other gender specific trope we have that has rare non-gender specific examples. I.e. provide a note in the description that rare non-specific examples exist but that they are exceptions.

@Helter Skelter: No the trope is about White haired young females who have some magical or non-magical attributte that sets them apart and that is (in universe), unique to white haired young females. It states, (however poorly), as such in the description. Every actual example of the existing trope is by definition the title description, (rare male examples aside). Yes the title isn't tottally accurratte since it misses one of the 3 major parts of the trope. But liek i said, that falls under I Though It Meant. Trope names do not have to be perfectly descriptive, or we wouldn;t even have the I Though It Meant index. Currentlly the name covers 2 of the 3 major aspects of the trope, (and as we've both said pretty is a side effect in fiction land).

Yes you do need to prove there are lots of examples. Sorry but we have copuntless tropes around here that are gender specific, nearly all of the have examples of rare oppossitte gender exceptions. Therefore it's completly acceptablle for a trope to be gender specific where non-specified gender examples are rare. Remeber the thread at the top of this forum. You have to prove that there's a problem. Right now in light of how we treat other gender specific tropes vis a vis rare examples there is not an issue.

Like i said before, we'd have t rename and sort through 1441 wick's to rename it. Unless we can prove the name is a sufficentlly large issue to justify the amount of work involved in editing that many pages, (even if cleanup of wrong examples will mean a few page edits anyway), i don't see a good reason for changing it.

edited 5th May '13 8:28:13 PM by Carl99

42 helterskelter5th May 2013 08:45:44 PM , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
What is it that you don't understand?

This trope is right now Always Female.

Obviously there are a majority of female examples.

Prior to the name change at WHPB, that is where all the male examples went! That is why there are so few male examples on this trope! Why is this so hard to understand?

The trope is not about something that sets her apart. It is just some sort of nebulous "special". The trope enforces two ideas that the proposed new trope would not be requiring or about: "female" and "pretty". It misses an entirely other point, which is "special" (or arcane, as it were). Do you not understand that I Though It Meant is Just for Fun? That people make up silly explanations for a trope? Like, here is a typical example:

  • A Death Seeker is not a particularly dangerous Decepticon jet.
    • Nor is a Seeker Archetype of Skywarp, Starscream, or Thundercracker.
    • It's not a seeker missile that only tracks Death.

It does not list "exceptions" to the concept that trope names need to be clear and concise. It is Just for Fun. It is not an index. It is not a list.

The trope needs a definition change. Once it gets that change, it needs a new name. We are not discussing the idea that the trope as it currently is, is Not a Trope. Therefore, the current examples are not terribly relevant. We are not talking about keeping this trope for the most part. We are talking about basically cutting it and putting a new trope in its place.

The trope and its examples as it currently stands is totally irrelevant to the proposed redefinition/cut. This is why it is pointless for you to keep complaining. I don't need to provide examples. I just need to prove that it is Not a Trope and then replace it with something that is. Something that would not be named for a female because it is not a female trope.

edited 5th May '13 8:50:00 PM by helterskelter

Except thats nopt what i was discussing with everyone else prior to you butting in.

There's a trope here and it's clearly stated in the trope description. From the page itself. But maybe you wheren't willing to do the effort to read it.idea

white locks tend to mark their owner as special in some way. Maybe her hair is indicative of some spiritual (or outright magical) qualities, or maybe it's a hint of a nonhuman background. At the most mundane, it suggests wisdom beyond her years. It is a common mark of a Mysterious Waif.

It's very much a trope and at no point where we ever discussing cutting it anywhere in this thread prior to you stating as such in your last post.

Likewsie i get that they went to the other trope once upon a time and thanks to the sandbox we have a complete list of all examples. There are 8 that fit listed under the supernatural tab.

Here's how i'd re-work it, (minus a full cull of all Not an Example)

edited 5th May '13 9:01:09 PM by Carl99

Well, whatever, it's a rare decision that has unanimous support. You don't like it, but the majority of people here consider this either gender neutral or not a trope at all. I suggest we proceed along those lines instead of stalling here.
Fair enough, if thats where the community wants to go i'm fine with that. Though tbh i just got the impreshion it was Helter Skelter and a couple of others. But if thats the way you want to go i'll go along like i said.
The second paragraph of the sandbox focus heavily on what the trope is not. It would be more clear to focus on what the trope is, how the character is unusual and what that means.

Question for everyone to help us decide where to take this: What is the difference between this and Mysterious Waif with white hair?
The difference is that this isn't a trope exclusively for female characters. As is, it's Mystical Waif with white hair at best and at worst not a trope at all.
48 helterskelter5th May 2013 09:56:48 PM , Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Right now, the only part of the trope that is important is the white hair. It sort of alludes to the fact that magical, mystical, arcane characters have white hair, but it broadens it to the point of uselessness. White hair is used in fiction, notably in Western works, to mean a character is mystical in some way. Not just special (although that too), but there's something arcane about them. It's why it's often the only unique extra hair color elves have. My presumption is that we see white most often because of the general association with holiness, purity, goodness, etc, but also because it's not outlandish as a hair color. It's unnatural (humans can't even dye their hair white, so you never see it in real life), but it's not silly looking, like blue or green might look. On a woman it carries the connotations of Mystical Waif, Woman in White, White Magic etc. White on a person often means mysteriousness, which I think is partially what this is about. How many times, in Western works, can you think of a character that's supposed to be magical, mysterious, etc, and they have an unnatural hair color that isn't white?

This would be related to any number of "mystical" tropes like Mystical Waif. Sometimes a Mystical Waif will have white hair, but this proposed trope (I'll call it Arcane White Mane for now) needn't be a waif at all.

This is basically my thinking in two points:

  • Female, pretty, and "special" with white hair is not a trope. No matter what, I'd see that cut.
  • White haired and mystical is a trope (and often means a character is female, pretty, and special).

Because of that, I presume what we're planning on (although it must go to an actual vote, first), is that we're essentially cutting this trope (in the sense that this would almost be a complete redefine along with a rename), and replacing it with this. At most, the current name would stay as a redirect while we fixed up misuse. Personally I feel this trope has probably been riding on the idea of Arcane White Mane as the reason it's stayed around so long.

I mentioned this earlier, but I would by default exclude any works where You Gotta Have Blue Hair. It's just as likely to be coincidental as those, and I'd think we'd see a lot more misuse, as white hair is more prevalent in anime and people would be eager to make the connection if they could. Only a couple of examples I think would apply, and they'd need a really good reason to. I'd also completely exclude any examples that are platinum blonde. That's blonde hair. Not white.

edited 5th May '13 10:00:17 PM by helterskelter

49 InsanityPrelude5th May 2013 10:19:01 PM , Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
WHPB sandboxer reporting in. Yes, there were only a few that only mentioned the supernatural quality, but some in the "multiple" category fit as well. Also, the original White-Haired Pretty Boy description didn't really emphasize magicalness as much as White-Haired Pretty Girl, so naturally it would attract less magical examples.
I'd say just cut White-Haired Pretty Girl altogether and create Supernatural White Hair or whatever from scratch. White Hair, Black Heart is gender-neutral now, so there's no point in keeping that other trope around since it's all about this appearance trope that we're starting to hate.

edited 5th May '13 10:21:21 PM by WaxingName

Please help out our The History of Video Games page.

Alternative Titles: White Haired Pretty Girl
21st Jun '13 9:36:55 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
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Total posts: 143
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