Da Vinci's Demons

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edited 23rd Apr '13 10:27:28 AM by chakraup

this sounds great!

edited 25th Apr '13 11:54:40 AM by Sorastitch

Betting they totally ignore that DaVinci was gay and make him a ladies man.

Seems like they've already started.

For a second I associated this with Da Vincis Inquest. Larry Campbell was apparently far more badass than I thought.

I've watched all the episodes so far, I have to say its a pretty good show. I like it.

I doubt any firm grip on his sexuality exists as such. Goyer's free to play him up as Indiana Jones by way of Bruce Wayne and Sherlock Holms (defintly the RDJ version)

Well, he's definitely looking bisexual (possibly homoromantic) as of episode 5, but I do like how they play his relationship with Lucretzia as being entirely about intrigue. He's not in love with her. Rather, he can't understand her.

He just so happens to go about trying to understand her while completely naked, and that is ok.

edited 11th May '13 9:03:14 PM by RavenGrave

Howcome there isn't a trope page for this series?

I found it all a bit "no homo", myself.

Really? I'm a bi dude myself, and I didn't think they were being particularly no homo about it. I wouldn't object to a scene (or twelve) of sweaty naked Tom Riley getting it on with a guy, but I don't see his boning Lucretia there as being no homo.

Apparently David Goyer and Tom Riley also went to some truly epic lengths to ensure that the entire scene between Leo and Jacopo, where they pretty strongly implied that Leo had been flat out in love with Jacopo, made it into the episode, down to shooting it in secret and only showing it to the producers when there was no way that they could take it out. And while Leo hasn't been filmed bending lads over the table yet, Goyer and Riley have both said that he's not being portrayed as heterosexual.

What really bugs me is his sidekick, Zoroaster. Why is a 15th centure Florentinian named after the prophet and founder of Zoroastrianism? Was that the Renaissance equivalent of naming your child "Apple" or "Moon Unit"?

Er, that was a lengthy post. If this in any way comes across as me screaming "NO YOU ARE WRONG YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND" at you, that is not the point, because your response was nothing but polite and respectful, and I hope I replied in the same way.

NO YOU ARE WRONG YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND

... that it's totally fine. :)

I didn't read that much about it actually, did that all come out on The Backlot or something? It's still kind of sad and disappointing after how they(? Are they the same producers?) treated Spartacus. I don't think the presentation's that equal though, either in the production of Da Vinci's character or in the way that the villains are allowed to be explicitly queerer than the heroes.

Ahaha, ok that's good.

Yeah, they've been following it a fair bit on The Backlot. Tom Riley even made an account so that he could respond to the comments on an interview that they did with him (and a majority of the comments were really ripping him apart for things he never even said, and he responded with serious grace). He and Goyers did a follow-up interview after Episode 5 aired. But there are a lot of flames solely because he's not getting sweaty and naked with dudes. Which the interviews suggested is probably going to happen the minute Salais shows up.

I don't know if it's the same producers? In the interview with Goyer and Riley, one of them said that when the producers saw the ninja-filmed scene with Leo and Jacopo, they were cool with it, and that the show will be exploring more of Leo's same-sex romances in Season 2. So it might be the same producers, because with Spartacus, while there was Barca and Pietro in the first season, and Barca and Insert-Barca's-Boyfriend's-Name-Here in Gods of the Arena, I don't think that it was until Agron and Nasir that there was a really in-depth relationship. Hell, Agron and Nasir didn't even get to have a gratuitous sex scene until half-way through Season 3/4. Might be that the producers want to build up a fanbase first, lest the coveted 18 - 35 heterosexual demographic become disinterested in the mansexing?

As for the whole villains being queerer than the heroes thing...yeah, the whole "Pope in a bathtub with a 15 year old" was just uncomfortable. I get that they're trying to show him as being just a sexual predator, especially when later on he basically ordered his nephew to hand over the black woman, to establish that he's a hypocrite who exploits his position.

Unfortunately, I don't know if there's a way that they could handle that well. If they had shown him with a woman first, and then shown him later with the boy, then there would have been a backlash to equating homosexuality with predation. I'd almost say that it would be better handled if they had just implied that the Pope has creepy non-consensual sexual relations, and leave the gender of the partners completely ambiguous, so that the viewer could project their own squick into that void.

Alright, that's my lengthy analysis of the show. RG out, and over to you, Nicknacks!

I seriously have no idea what the hell the Pope was doing with that naked Boy anyway.

FORNICATIN'!

When a boy and a priest touch each other very much...

I see what you mean with your scenario, where the relationship is established as being "straight" and then escalating to queer predation, and the way it uses queer sexuality as a shock, but I don't think the way we got was better. Probably worse.

What you suggest as an alternative is something I like better, though if they chose to be explicit, I wouldn't have minded them doing both in the same episode, to roughly the same degree of exposure.

I think it's interesting that this conversation — or at least my part of it — poses bisexual predation as more acceptable. Ha!

edited 17th May '13 6:19:28 PM by Nicknacks

Yeah but they didnt seem like they were peddding out? I mean he wasnt fucking him or anything. And what was the whole knife thing?

I thought the implication was that he was baptising the boy with his penis.

Did the Pope have the knife? I thought that was his son.

This really needs a trope page.

First of all, I agree that this needs a trope page. I think that we have enough info to properly create one.

Secondly, I think that they're going on a bisexual front with Leo, but that they're going to be relatively subtle about it, until sometime in season 2. People are always like, "Oh, Leo's gay." (That's in reference to real life, not the show.) But I think that it was far more likely that he was bisexual, given the fact that some of his portraits that involve women strive to show off their beauty. Or it might be that he was more interested in beauty/sex than any particular gender, which would make him something of a pansexual. Either way, the show's take on his sexuality does not seem out of place, especially considering how things were, back then.

On the topic of the pope, I think that his exact sexuality is irrelevant, so long as they're showing that he's a massive perv, which is kind of the point. It's somewhat likely that he was some level of perv, anyway, so it makes sense. Besides, it's a few years before Rodrigo's reign, and he was quite explicitly a sex-addict. So, before he comes on (if he even does), they need someone to fill the "creeper-pope" role.

As far as Zoroaster goes, I think that his name makes sense. He is probably part Arab, though his country of descent is somewhat ambiguous. I think that the show is alluding to Zoroaster, the founder of Zoroastrianism, for a reason. He'll probably have links to the Sons of Mithras, and, since the show's version of that cult seems to take cues from SEVERAL mystical aspects of many different religions, Zoroastrianism could, eventually, be well-represented. Hell, with how the show is, he could even be a descendant/reincarnation of the prophet. Also, I have a question. In episode 6, did Vlad say, "mongrel", or "Mongol"? The first one would simply be another insult regarding his half-breed nature, but the second would give him a specific country of descent. I'm currently assuming that it was the first one, because I've been guessing that he's Arabic, rather than East-Asian.

By the way, this post has a lot of external links. If that annoys somebody, I'm sorry, but I thought that they were somewhat necessary.

edited 20th May '13 5:03:42 PM by SpaceWolf

"I thought the implication was that he was baptising the boy with his penis." Nicknacks, will you marry me?

Space Wolf: I love external links! They suggest research, or else someone dedicated enough to their arguement to produce fraudulent websites supporting their statement, and I am cool with both. And honestly, I'm just happy that there's another media portrayal for my team.

Also, "creeper-pope" should be added to his titles. Slash my headcanon is now Riaro opening every conversation with "Holy Creeper". And will anyone be surprised if Riario is revealed to be the Holy Creeper's son, and not his nephew? They do seem to be foreshadowing that with all of the subtle restraint of an oncoming freight train.

So about this Tropes page, how does this go about coming about? Should we maybe start discussing potential tropes here first, and then get a solid alphabetical list? Or just sort of make the page and throw stuff up?

On a far more frivolous level, how long until the show gets its own Ho Yay section? Because arguements could be made for Leo having some 'yay with:

Giuliano di Medici, Lorenzo di Medici, Count Riario, Jacopo Saltarelli, Zoroaster, The Turk (Until otherwise stated, his given name is The. Like how Coulson's first name is Agent), AND VLAD THE MOTHERLOVING IMPALER

edited 20th May '13 5:53:43 PM by RavenGrave

I like the idea of discussing potential tropes first. That way, we'd have something to go on, as opposed to people just throwing random stuff in there, without much thought about organization. Also, I totally agree with your Ho Yay candidates, especially when it comes to Vlad. Almost every other sentence that he speaks, when he's not being racist/bigoted, sadistic, or Satanic, can be taken in that context. Oh, and while I'm on that subject, he is DEFINITELY a Large Ham. Pretty much every scene that he's in involves him Chewing the Scenery in some regard.

Also, we really need to get the pope's official Fan Nickname to be "Holy Creeper". I would love it.

Anyway, here is a starting list of tropes that we could work with. It's gonna be out of order, because I'm just thinking about them off the top of my head.

• Ambiguously Gay: Leonardo
  • Ambiguously Bi
  • Bi The Way
• Ambiguously Brown: Zoroaster
• Large Ham: Vlad
  • Evil Is Hammy
• Faux Affably Evil: Riario
• The Sociopath: Riario, Vlad
• Cityof Adventure: Florence
• Guile Hero: Leo
• Trickster Archetype: Leo
• Sherlock Scan: Again, Leo
  • Awesomeness by Analysis
• BFG
• Magnificent Bastard: Riario
• Good Scars, Evil Scars: Vlad
• The Queen's Latin
• Reasonable Authority Figure: Lorenzo, when he wants to be
• Hotter and Sexier
• Corrupt Church
• Creepy Monotone: Vlad

edited 21st May '13 1:08:06 PM by SpaceWolf

Oh wait, Vlad The Impaler is in this? ...I may watch.

Haven't seen this yet, but... why is it called da Vinci's Demons? Doesn't that just mean "of Vinci"? I was under the impression that wasn't his name.

edited 20th May '13 11:38:19 PM by kalel94

I think that's needlessly pedantic.