Filum Romanum - A Thread for the Catholic Church

I think that's a wonderful idea, and I hope it works out that way. That's not what most people mean when they use the word vengeance, of course. It's more like "truth telling."

Vindication, then.

I think that's a much healthier concept.

It's the exact same word!

But not the same idea.

It is as far as I'm concerned. There is a debt, and it must be settled. For the truth to come out... that is the bare minimum repayment. Something closer to revenge would be to desecrate the tombs of those responsible and dump whatever's left of their bodies into a collective, unnamed ditch, just like they did those kids.

What's the point of "saving lives" from birth control, if the babies are to be left to die anyway?

edited 5th Jun '14 7:11:12 AM by TheHandle

When most people use the word vengeance I think there is usually some implication that the emphasis is on punishing the guilty by causing them pain commensurate with the damage they did. Batman is about vengeance. Vindication is more about honoring the innocent, informing people about something that happened so that steps can be taken to prevent it from happening again, along with helping survivors seek some measure of closure. The South African Truth and Reconciliation process was all about vindication. The two concepts have almost nothing to do with one another.

edited 5th Jun '14 7:11:39 AM by demarquis

Oh, but they do. Don't you know? A lot of people value their honour, their reputation, above their very lives (or those of others, for that matter), and for good reason. There's no need to inflict physical pain, when the world around one knows who one is, and the gravity of what one has done.

Actually, no I have no idea what you're talking about, and we seem to be drifting off-topic. The underlying point is that I dont necessarily see the point to a trial in Ireland at this time, although a investigation committee and a public report could do some good.

If I'm not mistaken, what Handle is saying is that he wants to see the people responsible punished, regardless of the rule of law, proof of their complicity, or anything of that nature. He doesn't care whether their culpability can be proven to the satisfaction of a court of law, or whether they were even crimes when they were committed, and he doesn't necessarily want them arrested, tried and "dealt with properly," he just wants their names dragged through the mud, and I imagine he wants something brutal to happen to any living sisters involved in those crimes.

edited 5th Jun '14 8:34:37 AM by Ramidel

My, my, you have quite the imagination. Talk about jumping to conclusions. I can't blame you, though; I've done a good job of impersonating an outraged man-on-the-streets that wouldn't have been out of place in M, in terms of tone and style. However, do pay attention to my words.

I said was that courts of law are unfair, I mean it in both senses: sometimes the guilty get away with utterly unsatisfactory punishments (the Utoya guy got only a couple of decades of jail time, for killing about sixty children in cold blood, for instance), and sometimes the punishments are disproportionately cruel. For instance, in some jurisdictions, one should spend more time in jail for digital piracy than for assault and battery.

I said that the kids should be avenged, vindicated, that there was a debt that needed settling.

How in the world would I be satisfied by brutal vigilante violence based on insufficient evidence? What is the point of blind rage? Retribution must be fair, precise, measured, and, yes, more creative than simple fines or jail time. Would blood bring children back? Would it deter future action? Or would it rather bring Sympathy for the Devil, and cast the guilty in a sympathetic, almost martyred light?

Juries can and will make mistakes, but they are the part of the judicial and legal apparatus that I mistrust the least. But I'll tell you this much; the State does not have a monopoly on justice or fairness or even in determining the truth. The State does not have the last word on who is guilty or innocent. The State have interests other than justice, truth, fairness, or even peace or the welfare of the citizenry at large. Do keep this in mind, always, when dealing with police, tribunals, judges and lawyers, civil servants and politicians. They are not your friends, they are not your enemies; they're just one more power in the equation. And their way is not always The Best Way.

No, it's simple: the truth must be known, and the guilty must be known, and the children must be named, and buried with respect. Is that really too much to ask for?

And with that

.

You aren't talking about this situation, you're using this situation to talk about something completely different.

This is not the thread to discuss the shortcomings of the legal system.

edited 5th Jun '14 9:17:05 AM by Madrugada

I just wanted to clarify that I'm not a bloodthirsty rabble-rouser, just a very concerned citizen, who wants "the bad guys not to get away with it", and who's worried about the State's ability to achieve that (or the Church's, for that matter). After Ramidel's wild extrapolations were allowed without comment, am I not entitled to explain this much?

The Catholic Church has a great opportunity here of showing how committed they are to doing the right thing, as opposed to, say, a Greyfriars-style esprit de corps that doesn't let you denounce even your worst enemies to outsiders.

[Also, I feel I need to question the appropriateness of the Black Comedy of using a picture of a derailed passenger train for humour.]

edited 5th Jun '14 9:45:10 AM by TheHandle

The church has no records about the burial. 800 bodies with no clear explanation as to how they got there in itself ought to be grounds for an enquiry.

They weren't officially buried. I'd have been more surprised if there had been Church records of them.

edited 5th Jun '14 11:04:22 AM by Madrugada

Well, someone knew they were dead, since they had death certificates for them all. The article suggests that the files are with Galway County Council.

Regardless, it's entirely plausible that any novice young enough to still be alive today wouldn't have been privy to a lot of goings-on or institutional decisions. Not certain, mind you ... but plausible enough to support a legal presumption of innocence.

By all means, though, the Church and the government both need to launch a thorough investigation. But I wouldn't hold out hope of finding much incriminating information at this date, and I'd be outright astonished if any evidence came to light implicating someone who hasn't already gone on to face a more awful and more competent Judge than Ireland has to offer.

Death certs are a civil matter. The County would have those. Burial records are purely the property of the church, diocese, or company (in the case of privately-owned cemetaries) that owns the graveyard.

Surviving nuns and suchlike would be a good source of information. Obviously should be interviewed.

Not to change the subject, but changing the subject: Pope Francis is not just talking the talk, he's walking the walk.

He's just canned all five of the members of the Vatican Financial oversight board and named their replacements. The new board consists of Rene Bruelhart, a Swiss lawyer who heads the AIF and who has been pushing for change; Marc Odendall, who administers and advises philanthropic organisations in Switzerland; Juan C. Zarate, a Harvard law professor and senior advisor at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a think tank based in Washington D.C.; Joseph Yuvaraj Pillay, former managing director of the Monetary Authority of Singapore and senior advisor to that country's president; and Maria Bianca Farina, the head of two Italian insurance companies.

With this action, he's replaced virtually all of the top positions in the Vatican Financial departments.

edited 5th Jun '14 12:38:31 PM by Madrugada

You know, just when I think I can't like the guy any more...

NO! Don't let yourself be mellowed out! He's a scam! It's a trick! He wants to make the inherently Evil Church tolerable again, so that they can regain their lost status, and become powerful, influential authorities as they once were! Remember what they did! Be pure in your hatred! Be steadfast! No quarters!

It's amazing what difference it makes that the church has finally a Christian for a pope.

Oh, you!

Now I really want a little cartoon of Francis chasing those five out of a temple with a whip.