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Since we've gotten told to stop talking generally about religion twice in the Homosexuality and Religion thread and were told that, if we want to talk generally about religion, we need to make a new thread, I have made a new thread.

Full disclosure: I am an agnostic atheist and anti-theist, but I'm very interested in theology and religion.

Mod Edit: All right, there are a couple of ground rules here:

  • This is not a thread for mindless bashing of religion or of atheism/agnosticism etc. All view points are welcome here. Let's have a civil debate.
  • Religion is a volatile subject. Please don't post here if you can't manage a civil discussion with viewpoints you disagree with. There will be no tolerance for people who can't keep the tone light hearted.
  • There is no one true answer for this thread. Don't try to force out opposing voices.

edited 9th Feb '14 1:01:31 PM by Madrugada

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15576: Dec 14th 2017 at 5:01:46 AM

The logistic tends to be that while Adam and Eve fucked up, we could solve that whole shebang but we continue to fuck up in various ways.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#15577: Dec 14th 2017 at 5:49:48 AM

Pretty much the whole issue with sinning though.

Inter arma enim silent leges
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#15578: Dec 14th 2017 at 7:21:01 AM

I honestly dislike the Ireneian theory more than the Original Sin doctrine. IMO. Is good if God is not omnipotent, but when It is, well, I start to doubt.

Like, I see Original Sin as a corruption of human nature, no more, no less.

edited 14th Dec '17 7:22:15 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#15579: Dec 14th 2017 at 11:51:59 PM

Christian god is pretty nonsensical anyway since it was updated from "regular god" to "omnipotent force that is omnipotent" (despite Medieval ages insisting on the Devil existing and being a threat), like if you look at Bible and Jewish sources, all the afterlife is about is "You are together with god, you are happy like if you were with your family" while there isn't hell, there is "you are forever separated from god".

Like, all depictions of pleasures and whatever of afterlife? Nope, completely nonsense, according to Christianity only thing you need to be happy is to be with God, but for some reason almost every modern Christian depiction of heaven is like "Oh, you see your family members again and your dog and you get to have fun and good food and-" even though that isn't what teaching says, teachings say only thing to be happy and fulfilled is to be with God :P

So I guess you could argue that God is whatever switch in your brain that when it get turned on you can't feel unhappy ever again.

I guess thats another way to look at it actually, if God is actually "source of all good" then good and evil exists because people are separated from God. So if you are with God, there is only Good, if you are forever separated from God there is only evil. That would match with "you are sinner because you have bad thoughts even though you don't do anything bad" school of thought I guess. So rather than God creating Good and Evil, God is "Good" the concept itself.

(though seriously, "you" =/= "your thoughts", "you" are an observer who witnesses the thoughts and reacts how you choose based on what you observe :P Though I guess thats topic for psychology thread)

edited 14th Dec '17 11:57:55 PM by SpookyMask

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#15580: Dec 14th 2017 at 11:58:08 PM

Judaism has a few more agreeable beliefs from my perspective. One is that "Satan" is not an evil, rogue entity but just God's spiritual tester for humans.

Although, ever notice in popular depictions of the Devil/Lucifer he's always presented as having rebelled out of resentment towards humanity? I thought that was strictly an Islamic belief. It's strange most everyone seems to be aware of that story now.

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#15581: Dec 15th 2017 at 12:02:43 AM

Yeah, Satan in Judaism is just angel whose job is to test how true your faith is. There is no evil malevolent entity in Judaism, though to modern perspective God is pretty malevolent there tongue

Its part of why I find Lucifer/Devil stupid concept, like how would omnipotent being create a being that rebels against them, omnipotent force can't have an opponent since they are omnipotent, so they are unbeatable.So either God isn't omnipotent or there isn't Devil. There isn't any basis on concept of Devil besides Revelations and Revelations seems to be rant about Roman Empire and about how "Christ is gonna return any days and kick Rome's ass"

(its kind of why its annoying that Conquest is replaced with Pestilence nowadays, because themes of Horsemen of Apocalypse actually make sense with Rome connection while nowadays the four horsemen have no real theme to them besides death and gloom ooh spooky)

Anyway, most popular ideas about Lucifer comes from Paradise Lost, including that one. Its also were Stupid Sexy Satan concept is from :P

edited 15th Dec '17 12:04:53 AM by SpookyMask

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#15582: Dec 15th 2017 at 2:20:26 AM

I don't see why God's omnipotence means he can't have an opponent. Indeed, just about everyone is or was in varying degrees of opposition to God. Satan is no different: he's a created being in opposition to God. He's just the most powerful of fallen creatures, and the most evil.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15583: Dec 15th 2017 at 3:30:17 AM

There's nothing to say that Satan isn't legitimately antagonistic but also has a benign purpose in God's plan. It might even be that he did have the designated prosecutor role as Judaism states but went overboard with it and became a legitimate antagonist.

The idea that God's omnipotence keeps him from having an antagonist disregards the possibility he might find an antagonist useful in some way. That is part of the Iranean Theory.

Likewise, if God is the source of all good, it's not that big of a leap to assume that "being one with God" in Heaven would logically lead to being one with all that is good (i.e your family, your dog, so forth).

edited 15th Dec '17 3:31:39 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Elfive Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#15584: Dec 15th 2017 at 4:23:40 AM

It doesn't prevent him form having an antagonist. It prevents him from having a meaningful antagonist. No matter how powerful the devil is, god being omnipotent means that any resistance he presents is trivial. He may as well not exist. He's a cartoon character raging against the author.

That's the thing about omnipotence. Any evil or suffering in the world has to be there because god allows it to be. That's just how omnipotence works.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15585: Dec 15th 2017 at 4:45:58 AM

That depends on the parameters you're working with. The "field of battle" of God and Satan is the human soul, and if there's something even the most optimistic of readings of the Bible makes very clear is that we're very fallible beings. If what Satan needs to do to "win" is help along our path towards being bastards that doesn't seem far-fetched.

Of course, the fact evil will lose in the end, inevitably is kind of interwoven with Christianity, so you could argue that no antagonist in Christianity is meaningful but that seems a tad reductive.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Matues Impossible Gender Forge Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Impossible Gender Forge
#15586: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:21:50 AM

I mean, that just means that God is holding back right?

Why would God and Satan be on equal terms with the soul winning game?

Can God make a human so intractable that even he can't can't convince them?

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15587: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:31:08 AM

That's essentially the problem of evil.

If you go by St. Irenaeus (which seems to be where this argument is heading), the logic is that good only has value in opposition to evil, so mankind must have capacity for evil otherwise the entire thing is worthless.

To quote Matrix:

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#15588: Dec 15th 2017 at 5:52:12 AM

Its kind of why I started wondering if Christianity as it is taught is basically attempting to anthropomorphize a force that isn't a person or even think at all tongue Like all "evil has to exist or else God wouldn't have created evil" justifications require a lot of hoops to go through. So either, God didn't create evil and evil just exists, or God has weird morality thing going on. It is why I thought that going with logic "God is Good, without God is Evil" is much more simple way of thinking about it.

That being said, that isn't definitely how Christianity sees it since it loves to talk about God's plans and whatever as if everything has to be literal instead of metaphors :P Which is also why I find concept of Jesus' sacrifice to always have been weird. If Jesus is God then how is God being killed through painful method absolving all the sins, if Jesus and God are separate but connected, still not seeing it. Like, is there a reason why God couldn't have absolved Sin without Theatrics? tongue

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#15589: Dec 15th 2017 at 6:03:01 AM

Protagonist 506: Sure it does. If there weren't occasional bits of happiness for contrast we wouldn't suffer as much.

Trump delenda est
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15590: Dec 15th 2017 at 6:21:25 AM

"God is good, evil is God's absence" is literally the Augustinian Theory. So select your (Theodicy) fighter: St. Augustine or St. Irenaeus? Augustine's special move is "Great Mover" , which rocks the whole stage and takes half your health bar, whilst Irenaeus has the "Millenialism" special move which hits the opponent continuously in a bleeding effect throughout the match. Choose carefully.

I don't find either theory of Theodicy at all that implausible (and if anything I find Augustine's more difficult to work with). The Iranean theory is perfectly logical, it's greatest problems lie in the implications rather than the base theory.

Like, is there a reason why God couldn't have absolved Sin without Theatrics?

The central spinning axis of Christianity is self-sacrifice and martyrdom. Nothing gets done without those because those are the cornerstones of morality. Thus God absolves us by sacrificing himself.

That's the simple explanation, because we could go on days here about the intricate relationship between how the absolution must come through God made flesh rather than any other method for flesh is man and Jesus Christ's role as a second Adam to restart mankind, but I'm trying to be brief here.

edited 15th Dec '17 6:25:48 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#15591: Dec 15th 2017 at 6:24:51 AM

Thing is though, did God actually sacrifice anything since it is, you know, a god tongue Clearly death and pain didn't do much to him [lol]

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15592: Dec 15th 2017 at 6:27:05 AM

If you lost your eyesight while trying to save a baby and then you got an eye transplant which restored your eyesight, that still means you sacrificed your eyesight to save a baby. The fact you got it back doesn't diminish things.

Jesus is God coming to earth to be affected by all our human temptations and desires then being forced to suffer and die at the hands of his own creation.

It's pretty hardcore.

edited 15th Dec '17 6:28:29 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#15593: Dec 15th 2017 at 6:33:08 AM

[up][up] What you bring up is talked about in Anne Rice Memnoch the Devil. It is a fascinating book because it's clearly a lot of her struggling with her own ideological and spiritual issues.

SpookyMask Since: Jan, 2011
#15594: Dec 15th 2017 at 6:56:24 AM

Thing is though, if human became an ant, lived life of an ant and died as an ant and then be brought back to life as human, would that human really show much of respects for ants? <_<

Like, part of reason why death is scary is because its permanent. If it isn't permanent, well that just leaves the torture aspect and I still don't see why god had to feel pain to forgive humanity in first place." To empathize better with them" narrative? tongue Your eyesight metaphor doesn't really explain why Jesus had to suffer and die for humanity's sins to be forgiven. It kind of sounds like sacrifice for sake of sacrifice

edited 15th Dec '17 6:57:48 AM by SpookyMask

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#15595: Dec 15th 2017 at 6:59:51 AM

NVM

edited 15th Dec '17 7:00:15 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#15596: Dec 15th 2017 at 7:17:00 AM

You're trying to argue waaaay too many things at once.

A) Ant metaphor: ...sure?

B) Why sacrifice: Again, this is Christianity. Sacrifice is the cornerstone of the entire religion. Jesus's sacrifice is what validates the whole thing. The whole thing being mankind consists of a bunch of shits, and someone had to pay the bill for our sins. Turns out God picked up the tab, and Jesus was the only way this fucked up moral transaction could be done.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#15597: Dec 15th 2017 at 7:28:53 AM

Well, to be fair, not all Christian denominations are into the whole "Jesus as sacrificial lamb" thing. Some of just see him as a guy with a unique relationship to God.

'Course, that does leave us without a simple, uncomplicated explanation for the existence of evil.

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Elfive Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#15599: Dec 15th 2017 at 7:34:23 AM

It still comes down to being in gods hands. Omnipotence means we're as fallible as he says we are. It means fixing us required as much or as little sacrifice as he decided it did.

You want to say this dude is omnipotent you have to follow that thought through to it's logical conclusion.

DeMarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#15600: Dec 15th 2017 at 7:38:00 AM

Claims that Jesus is mankind's ultimate heroic martyr tend to suck the oxygen out of everything else. Which is unfortunate because, as a Christian, I have always felt more inspired by the image of Jesus as a real person, with feelings and faults and all.

Oh, and not everyone agrees that God is clearly omnipotent. I think its more complicated than that.

edited 15th Dec '17 7:39:21 AM by DeMarquis

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."

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