Warframe: F2P co-op Guyvering

Vaykor Hek is minor upgrade over vanilla Hek. Crits indeed surpass multishot. My only gripe is that there were many better weapons for Vaykor treatment - Grinlok being most obvious. Vanilla Grinlok is kind of meh and it would be thematically fitting with Vaykor Marelok just like Hexis with Boltor and Akbolto, Veil with Cernos and Ballistica and Suda with Gammacor and Simulor.

Doesn't Vaykor Hek need a maxed Prime Ravage to break even with base hek?

That's an excessive requirement to have a "minor" upgrade.

Personally, I think the Vaykor primary should have been Ogris.

BOOM motherfucker!

No, it needs Primed Ravage to even at per-shot damage and soundly beat at DPS. And this is before taking in to account headshot crits. Granted, vanilla has better procs what with having 200% multishot.

Baro appeared. He brought salt.

You know, I'm kind of sad that while all the other shotguns became very nice and got big damage upgrades, it seems like the Boar Prime is basically the same, except with 5 extra shots in the mag.

Oh no, that's not quite true. It also got fire-rate and proc chance nerf.

News from devstream: multishot will consume extra ammo. Remember I said Baro brought salt. Forget it! This is salt. Whining, bitching, moaning, personal assaults, disregarding common sense, explosive diarrhea and all other niceties of wild herd of pompous idiots. I can not do anything else but relish in their suffering.

I just can't help myself - these things make me so giddy.

When you say salt, what exactly dd Baro bring?

Nothing good, obviously, although knowing video game fans someone is going to whinge regardless of what it is, and the revelation that Primed Streamline was a troll is going to get some people resentful no matter what he brings.

The point is: Got any specifics?

Also I doubt that Multishot using extra ammo is gonna stick. That sounds like one of those things devs like to play with to see how they feel, but it simply doesn't strike me as a good idea. Too much weird stuff attached

Those would be prisma sentinel accessories. Forgot name - techy looking wings and tail. Costs 500 ducats both combined which is hefty price, but, since I care about sentinel accessories even less than frame accessories, I don't really care. It's on Pluto in case you care.

As for multishot change itself, I'm not sure I'm ready to give opinion. There are pros and there are cons. I'll just enjoy salt for now.

Really? Wiki says PC is on Mercury. Well, either way.

Surprised it's only two this week. Well, I can see why that's disappointing, but whatever. Baro has stuff I want like, one time out of five anyways, so I'm not exactly surprised.

I nearly choked up laughing at Baro's "deals". Armor chest piece, two sent cosmetic and Jolt.

As for the devstream, my personal highlights:

• I actually kinda preferred when Steve was animating the stream.
• Multishot costing extra ammo like Prany said. I prefer efficient weapon all around so LOOOOOL.
• Nunchuks are coming. That's not actually something I care about, but people keep suggesting nunchucks like it's an original idea. I hope that shuts their trap.
• Steve's manifesto for Starchart 3.0 still holds.

Gift from the Lotus: blue potato.

Baro doesn't have anything interesting: Jolt (secondary electricity/status chance), Prisma Daedalus Chest and the sentinel accessories. Gonna save my Ducats and credits for the next round.

Of COURSE both of the Sentinel accessories are Prisma versions of the only Sentinel accessories I already had. :/

Sounds to me like they are once again trying to get people to diversify their builds. Multishot mods are always priority right after damage mods, so this seems like an attempt to force players to have to actually think about whether or not to slot it, rather than it just being a permanent placement.

Unfortunately, this kind of change is just going to result in a massive drop in player damage output, especially for high Ro F weapons and shotguns. Burst weapons are largely hated because you can end up wasting ammo by firing a shot you didn't need to fire. This change causes multishot mods to give every weapon the downside of burst fire, it would make every one of those mods utterly useless outside of pvp.

Assuming the goal is to force build diversity, they really need to work on making the unused mods actually worth considering, not make the list of unused mods bigger. If people lose multishot, they'll just slot another elemental mod. Nothing changes, you just have fewer good mods to consider for each gun, that's it.

It's worth noting that the effect it'll have on shotguns is pretty weird.

Basically the way it works for shotguns is, a 100% Multishot will give you a whole other round of pellets. Everything up to that point is actually based individually on pellets.

So like, let's take the Sobek for example: With 4 base pellets, every 25% multishot will give it a 100% chance to fire another pellet.

So now here's the obvious question: Let's say I have 75% multishot, so I'm shooting 7 pellets. How much ammo do I use per pellet? 1.75? How is that counted? Will they round it up? Because on a weapon type that already has less common ammo, missing .25 ammo per shot is definitely gonna make you feel it in longer missions.

Of course there's the option that they'll just change the way ammo is counted for shotguns and make it 1-ammo-per-pellet. It'd take some getting used to, and be a bit difficult to read as you go up, but wouldn't be awful.

Plus for automatic weapons, it's basically just an attack speed mod that also happens to slightly reduce accuracy.

I doubt buffing other mods will make them competitive. Damage mods are just plain insane. We have 90% - 90fuckn% - damage on basic elemental mod. Put it on and you get almost double damage. But wait, there's more - you have four of these. But wait, there's more - you also have four versions with 60% damage and proc chance and combined elemental procs are mighty useful. But wait, there's more - against right health and armor types you get 25% or in some cases even 50% damage bonus. But wait, there's more - you can combine your elements for whooping 75% bonus.

No matter how you buff utility mods, they can't compete with insanity of elemental mods. Akjagara is perfect example. It is indeed noticeably more powerful in damage department than Akbolto, its prerequisite. Akjagara however has terrible recoil. Like really terrible. You could put Stabilizer on it, but, guess what, damage drops reeeeaaaaly hard and now it's tier below Akbolto. And thus downgrade. And not because Stabilizer doesn't do it's job. It's because damage mods are so pumped, removing single one takes weapon tier lower.

In one way you're right - if multishot goes, it'll just be replaced with another elemental. So I would suggest nerfing elementals to 30% damage at most and damage bonuses against health types to 15% (single) and 30% (combined). Now you can buff utility mods to be as appealing as elemetals.

And before anyone goes "but muh deeps", I'd suggest you to wear extinguished dragon key for a while. I use it in my derelict solo runs because it has zero effect on my performance.

edited 5th Sep '15 12:22:54 PM by Prany

Honestly?

I'd remove multishot outright.

The mod as is is just a "stat bomb". Literally no guns whatsoever have any reason to not equip it; it just does everything (more or less).

The new version would be (as others said) a glorified fire rate mod that at best would be used for "burst" builds.

Based on common sense, we shouldn't bother keeping redundant mods. With that said, Warframe does have a lot of redundant mods anyway...

Same argument has been made a dozen times over regarding the base damage mods. Even more true for those, some weapons like castanas and penta don't benefit much, if at all from multishot, but absolutely everything needs the base damage mods equipped to keep up. Pretty much everyone at this point would rather see weapons changed to gain damage as they level instead of needing to waste a mod slot every time.

As for the idea that this change basically makes Multishot a +Ro F/-Acc mod for weapons, that pretty well proves my point about it being fairly useless. Look how unused the corrupt mods that boost fire rate are, even the people who worship DPS don't want to be wasting shots if they can avoid it.

Make Multishot for bows only,since it makes more sense for them.

edited 5th Sep '15 2:00:19 PM by alekos23

Get up to speed, mortuana! Penta and Castanas totally benefit from multishot. It's Simulor which doesn't benefit from multishot... I think. Or was it Mirage from which it doesn't benefit?

Anyhow, if we assume multishot is problematic mod and base damage mod acts the same way, it's pretty safe to say base damage mod is problematic.

Penta and Castanas are limited on how many shots can be out at once. Multishot doesn't up that limit last I checked, so it does more to limit how many placements you can have. Granted, it's not a crippling downside, but it's less of a straight forward upgrade than for any other gun.

You are right about Simulor though, forgot about that one. Multishot is genuinely a bad idea for that gun.

Since Penta is perfect for headshots with mid-air detonation, I have never reached its shot limit. Can't say about Castanas, since haven't used em much.

edited 5th Sep '15 10:45:32 PM by Prany

Simulor is the same as the beam weapons; even if you don't see the extra "shot" it's still there. I see no reason to turn down the extra damage or faster stacking.

Just like Prany I don't see the point of maxing the Penta's active shots at once. Manage one or two shots at a time and it'll do fine. I struggle to think of a situation where you want five prepared detonation. Maybe in defense, but even then you probably put more time in prepping the detonations than actually killing anything.

I'd remove damage mods too if you really want to know. I just think that removing a couple of rank 5 mods is WAY easier to do than removing rank 10 mods, because the investment is not the same. Like it or not, maxing these mods is a huge undertaking, and there is no doubt that removing them will piss off the users.

I've heard some suggestions to give base damage mods their own mod slot. In this way investment in them isn't lost (thou, in case of removal, we would get compensation anyway) and they would still serve as sort of progression stick.

As for elementals, there are suggestions to make elemental mods convert weapons damage in to their respective elemental damage. Damage bonuses against certain health types should still be nerfed, else elemental mods are still basically damage mods.

I think it might need to be readdressed that multishot mods aren't being removed though, just being made useless. I'd actually have to agree that removing them would bother me less. I'd rather have few mods that are all viable versus many mods and only a handful are viable.

I still say though that buffing the minor mods would've been a better action that achieved the same result. Buffs and nerfs are ultimately only slightly different tools for achieving the same purpose: balance. So long as the mods all end up on roughly equal ground, it wouldn't matter if they all only buffed 10% or 100%, it would make them the same.

The only difference is that nerfs piss people off, buffs make them happy. So why not get the result you want in the way that makes everyone glad you did?