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Misused (rename crowner 9/11/13): Cavemen Vs Astronauts Debate get usage counts

 51 lu 127, Thu, 13th Jun '13 1:48:36 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Crowner is rendered invalid. The "at issue" box was misleading.

There has been no proof of misuse. One troper on page 1 brought up a couple of examples on the page might fit better under other tropes. The number of examples brought up is trivial and does not constitute misuse, especially when another troper claims to have found no misuse in the wicks. The trope is also not launched prematurely. It has a history dating back to 2010. It may have been launched early then, but after three years, it has had plenty of time to work itself some Wiki Magic. You can claim failure to thrive at this point, which would also be untrue since 80 wicks and 345 inbounds is healthy enough.

Start a new crowner, without false claims, if you wish to rename this.
小さく揺れた向日葵
 52 Septimus Heap, Thu, 13th Jun '13 1:58:13 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Well, does anybody mind if we just clarify descriptions a bit (adding See also... paragraphs mainly - they are mostly missing) and then sent this to bed?

We've got this thread open - I'd like to still push for a rename.

Though I'm impressed with how little misuse the page has, the name is so non-indicative that even the people in this thread, who have read the page carefully, had trouble understanding the trope's meaning. And we still haven't done a wick check. I just did a quick one with ten wicks - two were correct, five were wrong and three others described just potholed the trope-naming conversation,

 54 Septimus Heap, Thu, 13th Jun '13 7:11:02 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Can you post that? It would make a strong rename argument.

 55 Another Duck, Thu, 13th Jun '13 7:38:31 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
If misuse is proven, I'm definitely pro-namechange. If it's not proven I'm against it.
Check out my fanfiction!
These aren't the same ones I checked last time, but here we go:

Raven Wilder
Of those, only the King Kong and Champions examples are definitely misuse. The other examples of misuse you list don't have sufficient context to say one way or the other.

That said, I'm still in favor of renaming this to something more descriptive. I'd suggest Absurdly Intense Argument, though something shorter might be better.

edited 13th Jun '13 12:04:49 PM by RavenWilder

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
Let's try to get "trivial" or "minor" in there. Something like Fighting Over Trifles.

More investigation and maybe a crowner will probably be requested. If it gets to that point, maybe Serious Trivial Argument or Intense Trivial Argument? Maybe as a redirect, at the least?

Raven Wilder
I think the word "absurdly" covers the "minor/trivial" thing, since an argument being intense is only absurd if it's about something that doesn't deserve intense arguing. An argument about abortion might get intense, but it's not absurdly intense since it is a matter of life and death. An intense argument over cutting the crust off sandwiches, however? That qualifies as absurd.
"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
I think "absurd" is too vague. Trivial arguments are absurd, but so are other arguments. If we argue about a serious topic every day for a year, that's absurdly intense, even if the topic itself merits argument. If we argue so hard over abortion that we when kicked off a train, you might say that was absurdly intense.

Raven Wilder
Okay. How 'bout Shouting Over Stupid Stuff?

EDIT: Now that I say it out loud, Shouting About Stupid Stuff sounds better.

edited 13th Jun '13 9:02:56 PM by RavenWilder

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
 63 Rethkir, Thu, 13th Jun '13 8:08:55 PM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
[up] I like that. The current title is suggest Hypothetical Fight Debate, but this seems to be about stupid arguments in general.

edited 13th Jun '13 8:10:08 PM by Rethkir

Image Source. Please update whenever an image is changed.
Better, but the name still has to have "fight" or "debate" or "argue" in there. This isn't about stupid rants.

 65 Rethkir, Thu, 13th Jun '13 10:42:00 PM from the gap between dimensions Relationship Status: Singularity
Meaningless Debate?
Image Source. Please update whenever an image is changed.
Raven Wilder
I got it! Squabbling Over Silly Things.

Thank you Merriam-Webster thesaurus!

edited 13th Jun '13 11:13:31 PM by RavenWilder

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
 67 Septimus Heap, Fri, 14th Jun '13 12:40:11 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
OK, shall we re-request the addition of the crowner? I am concerned that @56 doesn't meet the statistically significant threshold.

 68 Another Duck, Fri, 14th Jun '13 12:41:53 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I don't hold it as significant, especially as the post after claimed only two of those misuses could safely be described as misuses, and especially considering the overlap of the two tropes.

edited 14th Jun '13 12:44:08 AM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
I think it merits another check though. Also, confusion for Hypothetical Fight Debate that makes it unclear if it escalated into this trope should probably be considered misuse as well. We don't know for sure that it didn't, but that's pretty much exactly what we're trying to avoid here.

edited 14th Jun '13 5:14:54 AM by Arha

 70 Larkmarn, Fri, 14th Jun '13 7:05:07 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
To be honest, misuse or not, I really hated the original name from the get go. I'm super okay with a rename regardless.

 71 Willbyr, Sun, 14th Jul '13 8:40:35 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Clock is set.
 72 Noaqiyeum, Sun, 14th Jul '13 6:48:50 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
In the examples section, I count the examples for DC Comics, Marvel Team-Up, Gulliver's Travels, The Butter Battle Book, Deadliest Warrior, and the Sampo, for misuse. I also note that 11/42 examples are about literal Who Would Win debates.

I checked a random sample for misuse and basically confirmed the results from 56 and 57 (not a lot of clear misuse, lots of examples without much context), but I did notice that a noticeable number were referring to either the Trope Namer or How I Met Your Mother. So I went through and checked the wicks from trope pages for potholes.

In other words, 70% of the potholes were referring to one of those two examples. I think this is cause to believe that the trope is underused, particularly when its parent trope, Seinfeldian Conversation, has about five times as many wicks.

I'd also like to suggest the name Trivial Dispute (only partially for the pun, honest).
tiinker, Tailor, hunter!!!, wwhaler
d0ct0r, L4WY3R, MUTANT, C)(I-EF
STRONGman, wEAKMAN, JoKeRmAn, Th8ef
 73 Spark 9, Sun, 14th Jul '13 8:40:02 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Okay, given the evidence of misuse above, let's crowner to rename this thing.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
 74 Septimus Heap, Thu, 18th Jul '13 12:09:47 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Alt names or rename? There is already a rename crowner.

 75 StarSword, Thu, 18th Jul '13 12:45:05 PM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
That's pretty serious misuse but we don't seem to have 100% agreement on renaming (from earlier in the thread). Go with single prop.

Alternative Titles: Cave Men Vs Astronauts Debate
18th Jul '13 12:09:00 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
Total posts: 90
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