Wick Cleanup: Killed Off For Real get usage counts

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76 Fighteer14th Mar 2013 10:27:59 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I think we have a missing supertrope. All those sinkholes indicate that people want to link to something when a character dies. It suggests that we need Character Death as an exampleless supertrope that is on the Omnipresent Tropes index.
77 SeptimusHeap14th Mar 2013 10:32:23 AM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
I like the idea of create a supertrope like that; character death usually is a significant thing in-story.

Yes. It's not like death isn't a trope. It's just very common and very broad.
79 Fighteer14th Mar 2013 11:07:55 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
And Missing Supertrope Syndrome states that the problem with such tropes is that they are so broad that nobody ever thinks to make them.
80 SeptimusHeap14th Mar 2013 11:20:32 AM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
Or thinks that they are People Sit on Chairs.

Is anyone willing to make a YKTTW? It would consist mostly of a description, and Content Policy nonwithstanding I do not trust myself a lot with descriptions.
81 Fighteer14th Mar 2013 11:32:55 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I have a bad track record with following YKTTW entries to completion. I'll write it up but someone needs to be responsible for launching it.

Well, character death is an extremely broad trope with lots of subtropes. How about we fuse the proposed YKTTW into the Death Tropes index?
83 SeptimusHeap14th Mar 2013 11:41:44 AM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
I am not sure if every trope on Death Tropes is a subtrope of Character Death. In many tropes, the death bit is largely incidental.
84 Fighteer14th Mar 2013 11:44:10 AM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
^^ In which case we should probably write Character Death like an index. It's a subtrope to about a billion things even if not everything from Death Tropes fits onto it.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:13:26 PM by Arha

86 SeptimusHeap14th Mar 2013 12:13:48 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
Subtropes of Character Death, that is, not any generic death.
87 Fighteer14th Mar 2013 12:15:19 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
If you want to collate the subtropes so we can add them to the YKTTW, be my guest. I lack the time (and, frankly, the energy). I am concerned somewhat that a list of subtropes would be largely redundant with Death Tropes.

Edit: I intentionally wrote the Character Death YKTTW as an Omnipresent Trope, not an index.

edited 14th Mar '13 12:19:09 PM by Fighteer

Regarding the possible contexts, is it possible for this trope to apply:

  • When death can be quite permanent in the setting overall, but a particular race/type of characters usually get resurrected and show up again. Then one of this group dies For Real and can't ever come back.

Would that count as this trope?

edited 14th Mar '13 1:37:21 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
89 SeptimusHeap14th Mar 2013 01:35:42 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
I would qualify that.
90 Fighteer14th Mar 2013 01:42:06 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
I'd say yes. It can apply to a subgroup of characters who are established to be immortal or at least on a revolving door. Although you have to be careful not to confuse Killed Off for Real and Deader Than Dead in this context. For example, if you're thinking about Arwen and Lúthien from Lord of the Rings, it is clearly established that the spirits of elves who die go to the Halls of Mandos, eventually to be reunited with their kin in the West, but that humans who die go beyond Arda to a destination that only Eru knows. By choosing to join their respective human mates in the afterlife, Beren and Lúthien could be said to have been Killed Off for Real with respect to the typical patterns of their race.

edited 14th Mar '13 1:42:25 PM by Fighteer

I don't regard Arda having a revolving-door afterlife, narratively speaking, because after Elves come back from the Halls of Mandos nobody on Middle-earth ever sees them again, unless they're Glorfindel. Also you mean Arwen, not Beren?

I was thinking something more along the lines of In Nomine. Celestials (angels and demons) get "killed" frequently but their "bodies" are just Vessels or possessed hosts. They wake up in Heaven or Hell, feel sick for a little bit, and then collect forces to build a new Vessel and come back. Even if you kill them Deader Than Dead, they can turn into a Remnant and wander around as an amnesiatic "mortal" for eons before regaining their memories and powers. You have to blow them up past Deader Than Dead to really get rid of them permanently. Meanwhile mortal humans are squishy and don't come back AFAIK. ("Something along the lines" because I'm not very familiar with that game.)

edited 14th Mar '13 2:02:23 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
92 RJSavoy14th Mar 2013 01:55:52 PM from Edinburgh , Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Reymmã
[up][up] The thing about Tolkien's Elves is that they are understood to come back only after a long time (probably thousands of years) and more importantly, they never return to mortal lands (which is where all the story takes place after the exile of the Noldor). So it can be treated as permanent death for all storytelling purposes.

Sorry if I'm going off-topic.

edited 14th Mar '13 1:56:04 PM by RJSavoy

I've been paying attention to the YKTTW, and I'm thinking we might need some sort of Absurdly High Body Count trope to help with Anyone Can Die. Anyone Can Die is supposed to be "not even the main characters are safe," while people are using it for "lots and lots of people die (but probably not the main characters)."
94 Larkmarn15th Mar 2013 01:02:54 PM , Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
[up] That is a good idea. I like it.
[up][up]Makes sense to YKTTW that.
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
96 SeptimusHeap15th Mar 2013 01:17:40 PM from Zurich, Switzerland , Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
Sure. Make sure to note A Million Is a Statistic.
97 nrjxll15th Mar 2013 01:40:59 PM , Relationship Status: Not war
[up]Why? That's not the sort of "high body count" being discussed.

edited 15th Mar '13 1:41:21 PM by nrjxll

98 Fighteer15th Mar 2013 01:42:14 PM from the Time Vortex , Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Geronimo!
When creating a trope, it is a good idea to provide disambiguating statements ahead of time to clarify any possible confusion.

edited 15th Mar '13 1:42:21 PM by Fighteer

99 RJSavoy15th Mar 2013 03:47:20 PM from Edinburgh , Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Reymmã
If it specifically about extras dying while the main characters are safe, "Loads And Loads Of Redshirts" might be better.
100 Nohbody15th Mar 2013 04:42:04 PM from Somewhere in Dixie , Relationship Status: Mu
Just zis guy
RJ, except not all who die in that situation are redshirts. A character whose only distinguishing features are their name and their clothing is a redshirt. A character that's been in the work for a long time, with characterization out the wazoo (so to speak), is not a redshirt.

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