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Wick Cleanup: Killed Off For Real get usage counts

 26 Serocco, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:06:44 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Does Yamamoto from Bleach qualify there, or does that belong to his killer?
Men aren't men without women.
 27 shimaspawn, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:10:30 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
I'm not that far yet. I don't know.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I figured you must be talking about that specific example, Serocco.

To put it in more general terms: In a series where people stay dead when they die is destroying a dead body out of spite considered Deader than Dead?

 29 shimaspawn, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:20:58 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Even in a series where people stay dead, there will be people who make absolutely sure. In a lot of cases just to make sure that they actually did die and aren't just Only Mostly Dead.

edited 2nd Mar '13 12:21:26 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 30 Serocco, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:21:00 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
I would think so, yeah.

Onto Killed Off for Real. In order for an example to count, it has to be said in-universe that they can't be brought back; Word of God has to confirm it; and/or they die even though it's clear they could've survived or be brought back?

Lelouch immediately comes to mind for the latter. After kiling Charles, he likely took immortality from his father, just as Charles himself did to his brother V.V. However, Word of God is that Lelouch really is dead. Something like that?
Men aren't men without women.
 31 shimaspawn, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:22:09 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Word of God doesn't mean shit and should not be involved in trope examples. Just what actually happens on the show.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 32 Serocco, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:23:06 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
He gets Impaled with Extreme Prejudice, activates Face Death with Dignity, plays up Death by Irony and subverts Go Out with a Smile.

People think he survived because of that immortality bit (which was never mentioned in the series, oddly), and because there was a random horse rider whose face was obscured that people thought was him. Word of God had to step in for that one, even though it was clear he was dead from the get-go.

edited 2nd Mar '13 12:26:13 PM by Serocco

Men aren't men without women.
 33 shimaspawn, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:26:33 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Yeah, I have no idea what that means. It's not a very clear description and it doesn't help at all. Fanwankery doesn't really matter either. Just what actually happens.

edited 2nd Mar '13 12:27:17 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 34 Serocco, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:29:01 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Exactly what I said. There's way too much explanation involved for it, but basically, some of the characters were Not Quite Dead and Lelouch was one of several that was Killed Off for Real because he specifically planned for his death to bring about the closest equivalent to world peace.

edited 2nd Mar '13 12:35:37 PM by Serocco

Men aren't men without women.
 35 Fighteer, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:48:10 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Again, Killed Off for Real applies only when there is an established expectation that characters who die or sustain injuries that ought to kill them either don't die or can come Back from the Dead. Deader than Dead is a separate phenomenon, applying No Kill Like Overkill to an "ordinary" death.
Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 36 Serocco, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 12:55:30 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Doesn't that make Yamamoto count in Bleach, since barely anybody from the "good" guys' side died until then?

An example that doesn't count would be, say, Ginjo, Tsukishima and Kutsuzawa from Bleach all showing up in the afterlife once dying in the human world. If they didn't show up in the afterlife post-mortem, would that have counted as Killed Off for Real?

edited 2nd Mar '13 1:18:38 PM by Serocco

Men aren't men without women.
 37 Fighteer, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 1:32:29 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
If the series has a Revolving Door Afterlife, then Killed Off for Real could not count unless the character explicitly cannot return. Killed Off for Real and Deader than Dead can certainly overlap; making someone Deader than Dead is a traditional way to kill them off for good, but not always — as noted, writers will frequently find ways to bring back even those characters who are Deader than Dead.

edited 2nd Mar '13 1:33:21 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 38 Noaqiyeum, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 2:17:18 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
This discussion is making Deader than Dead sound like Rasputinian Death. -_^

edited 2nd Mar '13 2:17:29 PM by Noaqiyeum

tiinker, Tailor, hunter!!!, wwhaler
d0ct0r, L4WY3R, MUTANT, C)(I-EF
STRONGman, wEAKMAN, JoKeRmAn, Th8ef
 39 Serocco, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 2:17:54 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Well, the people who die in the Bleach series are souls. Ginjo, Tsukishima and Kutsuzawa are among the few humans who were killed and they're the only ones among that group who made it to the afterlife.

One thing of note is that souls are demolished in their entirety if a Quincy kills them. That includes Hollows, Shinigami and Arrancars. If a Hollow mask is sliced in half, they can be purified, but everything else (decapitation, bifurcation, incineration) will destroy its soul. Same with Arrancars.

edited 2nd Mar '13 2:21:58 PM by Serocco

Men aren't men without women.
 40 Fighteer, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 3:42:06 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Destroying a soul is Deader than Dead.
Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 41 Serocco, Sat, 2nd Mar '13 4:40:45 PM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Oh, I see, now. Thanks for the clearup.
Men aren't men without women.
 42 Ironeye, Wed, 6th Mar '13 2:31:18 AM from SoCal Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
Cutmaster-san
Alright, now that the Bleach issue has been dealt with, are any any more comments on Sandbox.Killed Off For Real? If not, we can switch it out and move into the cleanup phase.
I'm bad, and that's good. I will never be good, and that's not bad. There's no one I'd rather be than me.
 43 Septimus Heap, Wed, 6th Mar '13 2:34:46 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Sandbox looks good to me.

 44 Fighteer, Wed, 6th Mar '13 6:32:43 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I agree.
Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
No problems with it, so new description in. Should move this along.

edited 6th Mar '13 6:46:24 AM by Arha

So once the description is resolved, is the cleanup of all wicks that mean "this character dies, in a setting where death is usually thought of as final anyway" Special Efforts fodder?

 47 Fighteer, Wed, 6th Mar '13 8:56:21 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
We could shift the discussion there, although it seems like a short term project. Starred the thread for "final action".

edited 6th Mar '13 8:56:45 AM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 48 Fighteer, Wed, 6th Mar '13 12:45:41 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Just confirmed. It stays here to motivate people to get the work finished.

Edit: Thread title updated.

edited 6th Mar '13 12:46:19 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 49 Septimus Heap, Wed, 6th Mar '13 12:47:43 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
@48: You'll need to do something more than having it here for that. Unlike the Anti-Hero de-typing, here we do need to know at least something from the work to make an effective cleanup.

 50 Fighteer, Wed, 6th Mar '13 12:48:20 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Then post any doubtful wicks and we'll work on them.
Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
Total posts: 177
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