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Evil Albino, Heroic Albino, and other Albino tropes: Literal or not?:

 1 Marq FJA, Mon, 11th Feb '13 1:02:20 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
I've been redirected here from Ask The Tropers. The issue was prompted by a few edits and edit-reversions here.

Is the "Albino" part of Evil Albino, Heroic Albino, and any other tropes with that word in their title supposed to be taking literally, or does having an albino-like appearance note  suffice?
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 2 Another Duck, Mon, 11th Feb '13 1:27:30 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I believe it's enough to look like one. There are many cases where it's simply unknown. Human albinos don't necessarily have red eyes, though it's frequent in fiction, especially in anime, but otherwise they should have more than just one trait (hair). Pale skin is also important, especially if they avoid sunlight.

edited 11th Feb '13 1:33:02 AM by AnotherDuck

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I think that if it's absolutely clear that they aren't an albino it shouldn't count. For example, if they changed their appearance to look like that or if they're part of a fictional race that all look like that. In that case the intention likely wasn't to make them look like an albino but just to make them look distinctive.

 4 m8e, Mon, 11th Feb '13 5:31:11 AM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
Other disorders like Amelanism and axanthism might be included in this trope too.

edited 11th Feb '13 5:31:40 AM by m8e

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[up][up] I would disagree. It's an appearance trope. Even if it's the character just giving themselves a make-over to look like one, it should count.

The same way Heroes Want Redheads doesn't change no matter if she's a natural, dyed, or from a race who can only have red hair. The appearance is all that matter, whether it's natural or not.

 6 Another Duck, Mon, 11th Feb '13 5:41:36 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
[up][up][up]I would include fictional races only if it's shown to be just as abnormal for them, and the work treats the character according to whatever trope it is. I mean, if all Furlings from whatever that planet was called are brown and blue-eyed, and one of them happen to be white and red-eyed, it goes.

If they do it deliberately, it would depend on why they do it. It can be a way to invoke feelings in accordance with one of the tropes.

edited 11th Feb '13 5:41:50 AM by AnotherDuck

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I meant if the entire fictional race happened to look like that. It's hardly an evil albino thing then, right? And what if the appearance change to having white hair and red eyes (like the example that started this thread) changes in that manner not because of their will or because they're evil but because of some kind of ability they're using? Like with Power Dyes Your Hair. That sort of situation.

Sharknado Warning
I meant if the entire fictional race happened to look like that. It's hardly an evil albino thing then, right?

Depends on context. If he's the most prominent member by far / only one of his race seen in the work for most of it, I'd say it still fits - as it seems pretty clear the intention is to use this trope, just handwaving it differently. If there's a lot more of then one seen on a regular basis, then yeah, I'd say it's not an example, since there's a ton of them, and he just happens to be one who happens to be evil. (That's all assuming said race isn't Always Chaotic Evil)

white hair and red eyes (like the example that started this thread) changes in that manner not because of their will or because they're evil but because of some kind of ability they're using?

That'd be an example IMHO, assuming like above it's specific to that character.

The Trope really comes up to "Albino traits to show someone is evil". So I'd say the short hand to guess if someone's an example is "If I picked any Albino that appears on screen, what are the odds I picked a villain?"

edited 11th Feb '13 6:20:49 AM by CobraPrime

 9 Another Duck, Mon, 11th Feb '13 6:31:26 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
[up]It could be the hero. If it's all you have, all it says is that it's a notable character.
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Well yeah, I was referring to Evil Albino.

Reverse the good/evil thing for Heroic Albino

Well, you have a point on the first thing. I mostly just meant 'If there are several characters that have the albino look and only one is evil, does it really count?' To which the answer is no apart from some pretty specific scenarios.

As to the second point, what if the ability makes you look like that whether or not you're good or evil? Like a Face-Heel Turn or Heel-Face Turn, or you have multiple characters that can use said ability? To make a comparison, saiyans in Dragonball can get a power upgrade that turns their hair gold. Lots of saiyans are jerks, but not all of them. Does this qualify as Blondes are Evil?

Overall, the point I'm arguing is that for a person to qualify as an Evil Albino they need to be in some way unique in the story if it's natural and if it's not natural there needs to be an indication that whatever makes them that way is inherently an evil power.

edited 11th Feb '13 6:39:27 AM by Arha

 12 Fighteer, Mon, 11th Feb '13 6:44:45 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I will EXTERMINATE your unhappiness!
I'd like to remind everyone that appearance tropes are very strongly at risk for People Sit on Chairs. While albinos in media are distinctive enough to not be inherently PSOC, the arbitrary combination of albino + trope does not automatically make a distinct trope.

In short, [Appearance Trope] + [Characterization Trope] does not make [Appearance Characterization Trope].

There must be some special significance to the combination for it to count.
 13 Another Duck, Mon, 11th Feb '13 6:46:03 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I forgot one point. If the all-albino alien race is Always Chaotic Evil, then it still counts.

[down]The point was just that the whole race is Evil, so yes.

edited 11th Feb '13 6:58:48 AM by AnotherDuck

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 14 Marq FJA, Mon, 11th Feb '13 6:50:42 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
[up][up] What kind of special significance? The combination in this case is supposed to tie in with the percieved "alienness" of albino-like appearance, and how often such albino-like appearance is used as a cue that the character(s) is/are evil (perhaps as an extension of "looks abnormal/unusual = evil"), with Heroic Albino being a subversion of this expectation that more often than not still gets cast in-universe as Evil Albino anyway until they manage to prove the misconception wrong.

[up] Or "Always X Evil", to extend it further.

edited 11th Feb '13 6:53:03 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 15 Septimus Heap, Mon, 11th Feb '13 6:51:09 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Another Wizard boy
@12: Actually, it's: [Appearance] + [Characterization] does not make [Trope].

 16 Fighteer, Mon, 11th Feb '13 6:55:48 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I will EXTERMINATE your unhappiness!
[up] Yeah, that.

[up][up] The point is that the albinism has to have something to do with the character's villainy/heroism/whatever other trait is being discussed. It has to be salient. An entire race of albinos, one of which happens to be good/bad, would not qualify for this trope because there's nothing distinctive about the character's albinism relative to his characterization.

 17 Marq FJA, Mon, 11th Feb '13 7:13:24 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Good point. What about "they're all (pseudo)albinos, and they're all Evil (or initially percieved as such, but they're actually all Heroic)" cases?

And there's also the case that sparked this in the first place: An Evil Makeover that includes Power Dyes Your Hair applied to the hair and eyes of the character to white and red, respectively (and she is of course light/fair-skinned). I don't see why that doesn't count.

edited 11th Feb '13 7:14:05 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 18 m8e, Mon, 11th Feb '13 7:24:17 AM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
What if the race is a Planet of Copyhats instead of a Planet Ofhats and the original was evil?

 19 Fighteer, Mon, 11th Feb '13 7:36:14 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I will EXTERMINATE your unhappiness!
If the character in question is presented as unique, or without context — as in Planet of Copyhats, then one supposes it would count as long as it qualified for the other criteria: the character's albinism must have something to do with their role in the story and not merely be a quirk of appearance.

That said, if it's retconned into a Planet of Copyhats, and it turns out that the character is not an albino but just comes from a light-skinned species, then it would become an aversion.

The character in question that Marq is referring to is someone that uses a power that for unknown reasons changes her hair and eye color. It does not have anything to do with her personality, but it's mostly displayed when she's on the bad guy side. After being a good guy there's no reason that she can't use that ability anymore and briefly does. I've been trying to argue generalities rather than the specific case to avoid argument about the series.

Now, if you want to view this as a mere hypothetical to avoid that can of worms, I'd say that if someone uses an ability that gives an albino like appearance yet this ability is unrelated to any form of morality then it is not an example. If sucking out souls and devouring them was the ability, that would be evil and thus would qualify. However, a largely neutral power should be viewed differently.

Also, while I'd say Evil Albino is a trope, I'm not sure that Heroic Albino is the same. Albino that happens to not be evil? So what?

 21 Fighteer, Mon, 11th Feb '13 8:04:13 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I will EXTERMINATE your unhappiness!
This is getting into Trope Repair Shop category. An albino is tropeworthy if their albinism is important to their characterization, full stop. Evil Albino is, of course, the situation where being an albino automatically makes one evil. It is related to Smurfette Principle in the sense that being the sole "different" character in some way predisposes one toward certain Characterization Tropes.

edited 11th Feb '13 8:04:23 AM by Fighteer

 22 Marq FJA, Mon, 11th Feb '13 9:21:27 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
What Arha neglects to mention is that the nature of her powers is at least partially responsible for her acting Evil (it's tied to an inherently out-and-out Evil entity), and there's no real reason why using it after she had rejected said Evil entity wouldn't at least make her very ruthless note ; the taint is still there, she's just no longer vulnerable to being manipulated by an Eldritch Abomination Ultimate Evil. To wit, whenever in official spin-offs or non-Type-Moon doujinshi she is shown either deliberately using those powers again or accidentally having her control over them slip due to emotional stress, her personality does undergo a noticeable shift to a darker, evil-in-the-sense-of-very-dark-antihero one that is prone to off-screen violence of the Disproportionate Retribution sort (but as it's typically framed in comedic humor, no fatalities or permanent injuries occur).

[up] Does that exclude races as a whole when compared to other, more "normal" races?

Also, while I'd say Evil Albino is a trope, I'm not sure that Heroic Albino is the same. Albino that happens to not be evil? So what?
As Evil Albino notes, Heroic Albino is a subversion, which I take to mean that it requires that they be percieved in-universe as Evil Albino initially, but later be proven to be not evil at all, rather the complete opposite. It may rely on how Evil Albino is apparently so common, that viewers expect any albino-esque character to be evil, so it would be an utter surprise if they turn out to not only be evil, but to be quite heroic. Examples of the "not evil, but not truly heroic either" shouldn't qualify, though.

edited 11th Feb '13 9:25:44 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 23 Fighteer, Mon, 11th Feb '13 9:24:10 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I will EXTERMINATE your unhappiness!
What does all that have to do with her being albino, or at least getting an Evil Makeover when she uses those powers? In fact, I'd say that Evil Makeover is the more appropriate trope here.

Does that exclude races as a whole when compared to other, more "normal" races?
I suppose it depends on presentation. If we only ever see this one guy, who may or may not be a separate race/species, but his primary defining trait is that he's an albino, then I suppose it could qualify if it meets the other criteria.

If the world is filled with species of all sorts of different shapes, sizes, and colors, and one of them happens to be white, then I don't see it qualifying. Unless, of course, that species is Always Chaotic Evil.

edited 11th Feb '13 9:25:53 AM by Fighteer

 24 Marq FJA, Mon, 11th Feb '13 9:28:12 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
Ninja'd.

[up]
What does all that have to do with her being albino, or at least getting an Evil Makeover when she uses those powers? In fact, I'd say that Evil Makeover is the more appropriate trope here.
That the creator(s) chose it for a clearly exotic form of Evil Makeover, and for the combined effect of White-Haired Pretty Girl (often associated with spiritual/magical nature, which she has) with Red Eyes, Take Warning (often associated with danger, which she also has)? She's normally dark purple in hair and eye color, so it can also count as one way of "inverting" her dark colors.

For reference, this is the character in question. Her normal look is here.

If the world is filled with species of all sorts of different shapes, sizes, and colors, and one of them happens to be white, then I don't see it qualifying. Unless, of course, that species is Always Chaotic Evil.
And inaccurate in-universe perceptions of Always Chaotic Evil that get debunked in-universe later on would count as subversions, of course.

edited 11th Feb '13 9:39:13 AM by MarqFJA

Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
Yes. It's just an exotic look.

In regards to Heroic Albino, I think I'll take that to the TRS once my current project in there has finished up.

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