Follow TV Tropes

Following

Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

Go To

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#8351: May 12th 2016 at 1:55:09 PM

She's the queen of Atlantis(Aquaman is the king) and is being promoted as the second biggest character in the future Aquaman movie. While everyone else like the new Gordon are said to be supporting character she's apparently a main character in JL 1, likely in part to get people used to a new character that has never been in a movie before she's one of the main parts of one.

edited 12th May '16 2:07:58 PM by LordofLore

Paradisesnake Since: Mar, 2012
#8352: May 12th 2016 at 1:58:45 PM

But that's the thing: she will surely have a big role in events concerning Atlantis... but that doesn't do you much when the next movie is not set there. She has to have a place in the actual League or her role in the DCU will inevitably end up being a minor one (like that of a love interest).

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
#8353: May 12th 2016 at 2:01:39 PM

The movie is rumored to be a loose adaption of the Throne of Atlantis arc so I'm guessing she'll get quite a bit of time on the screen.

Paradisesnake Since: Mar, 2012
#8354: May 12th 2016 at 2:03:57 PM

Ah, ok, I've seen the animated adaption of that one... I hope they wont kill her in the live-action one too.

EDIT: No, wait. That was Queen Atlanna. I mixed the two.

edited 12th May '16 2:05:54 PM by Paradisesnake

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8355: May 12th 2016 at 2:04:09 PM

Yeah if someone isn't part of the team you could get an Avengers situation where they tried to play Maria Hill as as part of the main cast but she really wasn't.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Paradisesnake Since: Mar, 2012
#8356: May 12th 2016 at 2:38:34 PM

Mera is definitely a cool character, at least how she was portrayed in Justice League: Throne of Atlantis. Actually, her powers were so over the top that they overshadowed even those of Aquaman! That guy just can't catch a break... [lol]

Another thing you have to take into account is, the superhero genre being as action focused as it is, how actively your chosen female superhero can participate in the action. Wonder Woman and Ms. Marvel can hold their own at the side of characters like Superman and Thor, whereas the Wasp is better at being a nuisance than taking down villains ranking high on the Super Weight scale.

Characters like Black Widow, who not only do not have any powers but no cool gadgets (like those Hawkeye and Batman have) either, are not going to convince anyone that female superheroes can be as cool as male ones.

What's even worse is that characters like these require good writing to fit them into stories (Black Widow, her being a spy, got to do a lot more in Captain America: The Winter Soldier which was more of a Spy Fiction film than a traditional superhero movie). And you know what you get for expecting quality from your average Hollywood writer...

hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#8357: May 18th 2016 at 9:28:05 PM

Good Girls Avoid Abortion exists for several reasons. The non-sexist reason, is that it kills the drama rather easily and quickly, pun not intended. Let's say I, an author, want to include abortion as an accepted thing in a (fictional) society. How could/should I go about it?

Since it's so good at removing drama, abortion is probably a small detail. It shouldn't be treated as a 'omg she had an abortion DARK EDGY PAST'. It should be mentioned in passing, in situations where it happens to be relevant, in a world where abortion doesn't have stigma attached. Maybe it appears in an woman's medical records, though that does require the player to access them somehow. Maybe she says "thank goodness I went for an abortion, I'll never be able to afford another kid". Or a childless wife saying "I want a kid, but my last pregnancy was tubal, so I'm kind of scared now."

Whether or not someone had an abortion seems a lot less relevant than their sexual orientation in such a world.

edited 18th May '16 9:54:15 PM by hellomoto

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#8359: May 18th 2016 at 9:58:51 PM

Don't make a big deal about it. Just write it as something that's part of the culture you're writing, without anyone thinking about it. If it's perfectly normal to them, why should they take note of it? That's not to say it's not an important decision to make, though. There's just no cultural value to choose one or the other.

If you want to make a point of it, bring up a contrast. Could be a historical change where in the old days it wasn't as accepted, or it could be another culture where it isn't.

edited 18th May '16 10:00:39 PM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
InAnOdderWay Since: Nov, 2013
#8360: May 19th 2016 at 5:05:12 AM

Abortion's a touchy subject. If someone personally sees it as a bad thing, they're more likely to treat it as a bad thing, ergo dark and edgy past. If someone sees it as a good or acceptable thing, they're more likely to brush it off, or deal more with the cultural drama surrounding it more than the action itself.

Now, whether societal views on abortion are sexist or not is more relevant to the question. But that's not really a question for this topic.

Nettacki Since: Jan, 2010
#8361: May 25th 2016 at 10:10:34 PM

Dunno if this is the right place for this but here goes.

A Twitter hashtag has appeared asking to #GiveCaptainAmericaABoyfriend, specifically the film version portrayed by Chris Evans. They want future movies to pair him up with Bucky Barnes, aka the Winter Soldier.

Some are alright with the idea, while others believe it's a waste of time that would be better spent bringing up other comics characters that are canonically gay instead of changing up Cap's (who's either heterosexual or asexual, not sure).

Anyone wanna give their takes?

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8362: May 25th 2016 at 11:03:26 PM

I'd be in favour of bringing in a cannon LGBT at character because

A: Cap and Bucky already give much needed representation of a non-bro style or bash-brothers style male-male friendship,

B: While 90% of people wouldn't give a shit the nerd backlash over going non-canonical would overshadow the entire thing,

C: I think for some it would take away a lot of Cap's moral authority if his relationship with Bucky became not about protecting an innocent PTS Ding brainwashing POW, but about protecting someone he wanted to bone,

D: We've had three Cap films, that means Cap's time is probably coming to an end and if we're getting an LGBT character I want them to have a full trilogy (or more) of representation, not simply have it be tacked in for a couple of films before Cap inevitably retires.

But I'm also a strait cis guy (who is very happy to have the representation for me that point A provides), so I'm awere that my take has a bias to it

edited 25th May '16 11:05:37 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Imca (Veteran)
#8363: May 25th 2016 at 11:14:31 PM

[up] I agree with A, C, and D.

As for B, I dont care about that any more.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#8364: May 25th 2016 at 11:38:48 PM

I'm fine whether they do or don't, but if they decide yes, he's not a bad candidate for it to happen to, given his depiction thus far. They don't even need to give him a full-on boyfriend necessarily, just have him (or Bucky, or Falcon, or Black Panther, or Valkyrie, or Rhodey, or Carol, or whoever) indicate that they're attracted to someone of the same sex in a non-comedic, demeaning, or exploitative fashion.

Here's the problem with adapting canon LGBT characters from the comics (which for any other demographic would be my favored option as well). Most of the ones who have any chance of being in the movies are either locked up with Fox or part of the Young Avengers/Runaways, who are unlikely to show up any time soon for storytelling reasons. So you're left with Hercules, Angela, Raz Malhotra or Phylla-Vell and Moondragon. Not being able to see a single LGBT character in the MCU films until at least Phase 4, even though sheer random sampling based on demographic surveys (which themselves tend to be underreported) should indicate the presence of at least one of them among the 100+ cast right now just by sheer random sampling, seems a little ludicrous.

In that case, there's two main solutions. Either add a LGBT Canon Immigrant, which is also a decent idea, especially if said character ends up being an Ensemble Dark Horse like Luis from Ant-Man. But it's dangerously easy to half-ass them into a Token Minority, and their original character nature makes them low priority when it comes to screentime or plot relevance, which is counterproductive to representation.

Or, Adaptational Sexuality. There's a lot of ways this could go down, but the least troublesome of them in my opinion would be revealing that a previously assumed monosexual character is Bi The Way. You're not necessarily changing the character in the same way that a Race Lift, Gender Flip, or straight->gay Adaptational Sexuality might. It doesn't invalidate any heterosexual relationships they've already had, or any passionate but ultimately platonic relationships they have with the same-sex companions who are not their love interests. And if they're a preexisting character, then that handily deals with the Token Minority problem since they've already been established as something beyond their sexuality. I mean, the fact that Catwoman's been revealed to be bisexual doesn't make her long romantic history with Batman any less meaningful, nor would his own dalliances with Talia Al Ghul.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8365: May 25th 2016 at 11:49:40 PM

Cap just seems like a bad choice, he's on the way out, I'd go for Spider Man (problems and bullying faced by LGBT teens), Strange, Black Panther (they could talk about LGBT issues in Africa with that), make Wasp bi or similar, use one of the new people so that the character is around for a while. Who depends on if they want to make a plot point out of it (Panther and Spider could easily have interesting stories told that talk at least in part about LGBT issues) or simply have it as a background factor.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#8366: May 26th 2016 at 12:06:54 AM

Probably too late for Spider-Man per the Sony casting stuff, but I really like the idea of bi Panther quite a lot. Some of the kings of Buganda which is located close to Wakanda were known to openly have gay lovers, and it's possible Wakanda's isolationism insulated it from the assholes responsible for Uganda's homophobic laws. Would be a great opportunity for Shown Their Work.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8367: May 26th 2016 at 12:16:36 AM

Thinking about it Wasp would be incredibly easy to make bi, just have Scott and Hank be having a talk about Scott and being a thing and Hank can make a comment to the effect of "you're not the worst person she's bought home, God wa that last women a nightmare"/"I'm always grumpy at the people Hope dates, I treated the women she dated before you like shit to".

I'd be for making Ant Man himself bi but I'm afraid that someone might have the thought process "Ant Man likes men-Ant man was in prison-prison rape joke."

Star Lord could also word as bi, just do the exact scene with his spaceship and a hot alien babe again but this time make it a male babe.

edited 26th May '16 12:18:23 AM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#8368: May 26th 2016 at 12:17:32 AM

I wouldn't go around switching the sexuality of characters that have years worth of characterization over their relationships. Spidey being gay would pretty much remove either or both Gwen Stacy and Mary Jane from the story, unless you turn them into Glen Stacy and Mark Jane or something like that, which would piss off the fans even more.

Cap and Bucky have a dynamic more than just a strong childhood friendship, for Cap A, Bucky is the last living person related to his past since Peggy died, making Bucky some sort of emotional support for Captain America and his conflict with modernity after being frozen for 70 odd years. It is pretty much implied the Cap is still struggling with adapting to modern times and Bucky is the closest thing he has as a family.

I wouldn't pay this much attention to the hashtag, it is like a those popular fanfic yaoi shipping.

If they wanted to make a Marvel character who is gay and has a big name attached to him or her, there is Hercules and Howlett, which also have the bonus of dealing with having to hide their sexuality from others.

Inter arma enim silent leges
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#8369: May 26th 2016 at 12:22:42 AM

Wolverine's tied up with Fox though. The other option for Hercules is Amadeus Cho, but that has its own problems.

And if Spidey were hypothetically bi his relationships with Mary Jane or Gwen would still be just as important. He's had a ton of one-off love interests so one more who's a dude wouldn't really change much. As long as that relationship is treated with the same legitimacy as any of his straight romances it wouldn't be queerbaiting either, even if he ends up with a woman. There might be some whining from gay extremists that a bi character having hetero relationships is a betrayal of their identity but those kind of people's opinions aren't worth shit anyway.

edited 26th May '16 12:31:27 AM by AlleyOop

AngelusNox The law in the night from somewhere around nothing Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
The law in the night
#8370: May 26th 2016 at 12:29:23 AM

We all know Ancient Greeks liked to have younger men under their tutoring so to speak.

[up]I've seen claims that bi characters who aren't dating people of the same gender is not being gay enough and treating it like an Informed Attribute, pretty much meaning both sides will be unhappy and felling misrepresented.

edited 26th May '16 12:31:17 AM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#8371: May 26th 2016 at 3:55:55 AM

How much of bisexual erasure would be a problem?

Even then, not representing bisexuals isn't going to solve issues related to representation of bisexuals. We have to start representing them fairly.

edited 26th May '16 3:58:58 AM by hellomoto

AnotherDuck No, the other one. from Stockholm Since: Jul, 2012 Relationship Status: Mu
No, the other one.
#8372: May 26th 2016 at 4:46:11 AM

People will always claims bisexual characters are wrong if they aren't exactly up to their specifications. The specifications between people do not overlap enough that there won't be a lot of whining.

Personally, I think it's just one of those areas where we just need more of it. Any kind. While a "fair" representation would still mean a small minority of characters (most people are still straight, which is anything from 80% to 97% depending on study, not counting the everyone is bi theory), that'd still be an improvement. As far as representation goes, having up to twice as many of whatever small minority it is in works overall would probably be good, since that means overall more variety, if nothing else, let alone showing people that these kinds of people exist as people.

That may or may not make a whole lot of sense. I have a tendency to think in ways others don't.

edited 26th May '16 4:46:42 AM by AnotherDuck

Check out my fanfiction!
DeathsApprentice Jaded Techie Fox from The Grim Since: Aug, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
Jaded Techie Fox
#8373: May 26th 2016 at 5:13:25 AM

Isn't Valkyrie canonically bi? That could be brought up when she shows up in Thor 3.

Trust you? The only person I can trust is myself.
hellomoto Since: Sep, 2015
#8374: May 26th 2016 at 5:16:45 AM

[up][up] By fair representation, I had meant "no derogatory stereotypes such as Depraved Bisexual and Anything That Moves". Sorry for being unclear.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#8375: May 26th 2016 at 5:18:25 AM

What I'd enjoy would be background representation, you often get random huddled families and couples in city scenes, or simply folks on the street hand in hand, it'd be nice and so easy to make some background people same sex couples.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran

Total posts: 17,398
Top