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Unclear Description: Humanoid Abomination get usage counts

 51 Noaqiyeum, Sun, 10th Feb '13 9:25:40 PM from out of the night from pole to pole Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
That last is exactly why I moved Uncanny Valley to an example rather than the introduction to that paragraph. And you're right that it may not be something purely visual - but just because it doesn't show up in photographs doesn't mean it isn't UV. The way it moves is definitely an element that makes it uncanny and can be difficult to pin down; there are also things like carrying an inhuman scent or none at all, or flesh that feels to the touch like foam wrapped around a metal core.

A specific example of Uncanny Valley in Lovecraft that comes to mind is from The Festival (emphasis added):
This fear grew stronger from what had before lessened it, for the more I looked at the old man's bland face the more its very blandness terrified me. The eyes never moved, and the skin was too much like wax. Finally I was sure it was not a face at all, but a fiendishly cunning mask. But the flabby hands, curiously gloved, wrote genially on the tablet and told me I must wait a while before I could be led to the place of the festival.

Duck: Sorry, didn't see your comment until now! I meant that I agree with you on what Uncanny Valley means, but I think there are some humanoid abominations that are close enough to be uncanny rather than outright monstrous.

edited 10th Feb '13 9:28:28 PM by Noaqiyeum

We dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
- Robert Frost
 52 Another Duck, Mon, 11th Feb '13 1:43:29 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
I sometimes respond like that when I'm not looking for an answer. Or when trying to stop derailing...

Uncanny Valley has no requirement of actually being human, so robots, aliens, and monsters are fine. It's purely about appearance.

A Humanoid Abomination is to my understanding a being who is a monster, but can appear human. Now, if they can't appear completely human (or can they?), where's the limit? How far apart from humans do they have to be?
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 53 Noaqiyeum, Mon, 11th Feb '13 8:57:12 AM from out of the night from pole to pole Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
It should probably at the very least be A Form You're Uncomfortable With.
We dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
- Robert Frost
I support both Noaqiyeum's description and efay's second description. Either is good to me.

edited 11th Feb '13 9:38:48 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
 55 Another Duck, Mon, 11th Feb '13 10:14:07 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
#38 is good with me.
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 56 Clarste, Mon, 11th Feb '13 9:59:08 PM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
Hmm... I've got a question about this. How important is it that their nature is so obvious?

I'm thinking of a character from Medaka Box, who seems to satisfy a number of objective criteria but also doesn't seem to match the "feel" of the descriptions being given. She's older than the universe, clearly only in a human form because she feels like it (and has as many other forms as she likes, including disgusting "tentacles and too many eyes" ones), looks down on humanity as no more important than rocks, freaks out another character with empathy powers when they first meet, casually breaks the laws of both physics and magic, and has a nonsensical motive that doesn't even involve her own success.

But she's also really cheerful? And quite reasonable? She casually introduces herself as inhuman and likes to talk. A lot. Which I guess means she likes to talk to rocks? Despite being essentially omnipotent, she prefers to avoid conflict by convincing people that they have no reason to fight her through Breaking Lectures. And she gets a lot of conflict because a lot of characters instinctively see her as something monstrous.

Which is basically to say that because of her alien mindset and alien intelligence, she acts way more human than she has any reason to, and indeed more human than most of the characters. So the characters see her as a monster, she has monstrous powers and alien thoughts, but... it seems pretty obvious to me that she's not this trope. What exactly is there other than the subjective reaction?

Honestly, the more I think about it, this seems less and less like a trope and more like a writing style. A way of describing something seemingly ordinary as very wrong.

 57 nrjxll, Tue, 12th Feb '13 1:36:31 AM Relationship Status: Not war
Honestly, the more I think about it, this seems less and less like a trope and more like a writing style. A way of describing something seemingly ordinary as very wrong.

How is that not a trope?

 58 Clarste, Tue, 12th Feb '13 1:58:50 AM Relationship Status: Non-Canon
Three Steps
Okay, maybe it's a trope but it's not really the trope we're thinking of here. I feel like too much effort is being made to connect it to Eldritch Abomination when that's not really what I see as distinguishing it.

 59 Another Duck, Tue, 12th Feb '13 2:17:29 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: In season
No, the other one.
So is it a physical or mental abomination? I've always interpreted it as a physical, which I also think humanoid underlines.
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 60 Noaqiyeum, Tue, 12th Feb '13 11:25:34 AM from out of the night from pole to pole Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
[up][up][up][up] Based on your description, she sounds as though she would qualify, given the in-universe reaction to her, with perhaps a dollop of Informed Attribute thrown in for good measure if she comes across to the audience as fairly human.

[up][up] It's explicitly a subtrope of Eldritch Abomination. That does mean we're missing something for non-abomination-related things, and I plan to start on a YKTTW for Monstrous Humanoid soon unless someone beats me to it.

[up] Personally, I would argue that if you're sure it's only one or the other, it wouldn't count. (I don't think Pod People or The Thing count, for instance.)

edited 12th Feb '13 11:26:23 AM by Noaqiyeum

We dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
- Robert Frost
Om Mani Padme Hm
So would this proprosed trope be a monster with a humanoid form, like Cute Monster Girl, or a human looking thing whose true form is monstorous?

 62 Septimus Heap, Tue, 12th Feb '13 11:36:17 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
This trope is about incomprehensible beings. Not just weird calamari from space.

 63 Noaqiyeum, Tue, 12th Feb '13 11:45:32 AM from out of the night from pole to pole Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
[up][up] The former. Also Beast Man, Winged Humanoid, Horned Humanoid, Fauns and Satyrs, Monster Knight, Monster Lord, possibly Bishounen Line...

[up] Exactly.

edited 12th Feb '13 11:46:03 AM by Noaqiyeum

We dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
- Robert Frost
Om Mani Padme Hm
Can we maybe change the page image to some other slender man art? The girl with the flashlight in that image doesn't really have anything to do with the trope.

 65 Serocco, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:06:23 AM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Are we trying to distinguish the Uncanny Valley from an actual Humanoid Abomination? Like, cleanup, or are we trying to redefine what makes Humanoid Abomination?
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 66 Septimus Heap, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:07:54 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
The latter. Uncanny Valley is mentioned because many draft descriptions sound like Uncanny Valley.

 67 Serocco, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:25:44 AM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Okay, what's the current consensus on what makes a Humanoid Abomination?

Something like Alucard from Hellsing?
Men aren't men without women.
 68 Septimus Heap, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:28:51 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
No. Unless he qualifies for Eldritch Abomination.

Also, Motion To Swap description with 38.

 69 Serocco, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:33:59 AM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
I'd say he qualifies more for Humanoid Abomination purely because he looks human.
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 70 Septimus Heap, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:35:43 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Is Alucard a being beyond human comprehension, like Cthulhu and Co? I doubt it.

 71 Serocco, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:38:43 AM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
Then he's not an Eldritch Abomination, by that standard. Even though Cthulhu can be comprehended since he's an alien with psychic powers.tongue

Unless, you know, there's no explanation for why he's a human-sized black hole.

edited 15th Feb '13 6:49:08 AM by Serocco

Men aren't men without women.
Just so we stop talking in circles, Alucard is a vampire with Lovecraftian Superpowers. He's not an Eldritch Abomination, though. He has some blue and orange morality going on but I'd say he's pretty firmly human.

...Though a humanoid abomination can start as a human. I really don't know if he counts or not.

edited 15th Feb '13 6:50:06 AM by Arha

 73 Serocco, Fri, 15th Feb '13 6:49:41 AM from Miami, Florida
Serocco
I agree that Alucard's not an Eldritch Abomination. On the other hand, what of Muramasa, Aizen and Suzunami from Bleach? Just about the only incomprehensible creature that fits the Eldritch bill in Bleach is Aaroniero (unless you count Muramasa randomly turning into a giant mushroom with an eye to be "incomprehensible").

I always saw a Humanoid Abomination as a human-ish creature that was just, well, off, but I guess that's too close to Uncanny Valley?

edited 15th Feb '13 6:55:09 AM by Serocco

Men aren't men without women.
 74 Noaqiyeum, Fri, 15th Feb '13 8:18:39 PM from out of the night from pole to pole Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
The redefinition write-up that currently has the most support is this one.
We dance around in a ring and suppose,
But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
- Robert Frost
Looks good to me. I think we should plug that in soon, do some cleanup and then call it good.

Edit: Nothing in Bleach is an Eldritch Abomination or Humanoid Abomination. They still think like humans and don't break your brain or anything.

edited 15th Feb '13 8:56:08 PM by Arha

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