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There was talk about renaming the Krugman thread for this purpose, but that seems to be going nowhere. Besides which, I feel the Krugman thread should be left to discuss Krugman while this thread can be used for more general economic discussion.

Discuss:

  • The merits of competing theories.
  • The role of the government in managing the economy.
  • The causes of and solutions to our current economic woes.
  • Comparisons between the economic systems of different countries.
  • Theoretical and existing alternatives to our current market system.

edited 17th Dec '12 10:58:52 AM by Topazan

BonsaiForest a collection of small trees from the woods (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
a collection of small trees
#10651: Dec 20th 2014 at 4:24:33 PM

Do you think that basic necessities - just food and a house (not a good one, but a house) to live in - will ever be socialized?

I read an article about how the Republican party in Utah decided to give free homes (not particularly great ones, like half the size of a regular house) to the homeless since it costs less money than paying for their inevitable health problems or incarceration.

Now, I was thinking that even if new jobs will always inevitably be created, technology suddenly improving would kill a lot of jobs before new ones could be created that would take their place. And with the rate at which technology is improving, it could be very sudden and severe.

I wonder at what point, and how exactly, the inevitable socialization of basic needs would occur, if it does.

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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10652: Dec 20th 2014 at 5:09:14 PM

[up] Never, if the current national GOP has its way. Less sarcastically, you are exactly correct: at a certain point it becomes more economical to simply give people the basic necessities of living rather than force them to go through the welfare system or do without and then deal with the resulting crime and related social ills.

edited 20th Dec '14 5:09:37 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PotatoesRock The Potato's Choice Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I know
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#10654: Dec 22nd 2014 at 6:02:38 AM

Minimum basic income is what happens. You tax the capital gains of the machine-owners and distribute it to everyone, so that the machine owners have some appreciable number of people capable of buying their products aside from other machine owners.

BonsaiForest a collection of small trees from the woods (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
a collection of small trees
#10655: Dec 22nd 2014 at 6:49:58 AM

But but, that's socialism!

That reminds me of something from a few years ago. When opponents of Obama's beliefs started calling his ideas "socialism" in order to discredit them, a poll was eventually held asking Americans if capitalism or socialism was better for the country. While a majority said "capitalism", quite a large minority said "socialism".

It didn't surprise me, as I'd been thinking that trying to discredit an idea people like by attaching it to a concept that you presumably want them to hate often backfires. I call it the "association problem". Associate A with B, where A is something you want them to like or hate, and B is something you assume they already like or hate, in an attempt to transfer their feelings from B to A. However, it often backfires, especially when they feel the opposite of how you want them to feel regarding A and/or have no feelings towards B.

Where in this case A = Obama's beliefs (years ago when he was still new) and B = socialism.

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Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#10656: Dec 22nd 2014 at 6:58:08 AM

But but, that's socialism!

[up], [up][up] Even sounds like it! Ogodei, do you mean "machine-owners" in the literal sense, or are you referring to businesses/organisations in general?

Keep Rolling On
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#10657: Dec 22nd 2014 at 7:32:47 AM

The capitalist class in general, because "business" implies an organization, and there really isn't going to be much organization once automation replaces everything. There'll be the people who own the business, a tiny class of managers, the "business" as a mechanized juggernaut, and then the non-working masses, who can either live in some sort of Hunger Games styled dystopia, or Star Trek styled post-scarcity utopia.

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#10658: Dec 22nd 2014 at 7:39:13 AM

[up] I thought so. Would you include Government in the "capitalist class", because I'd be tempted to do so... smile

Keep Rolling On
Zendervai Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy from St. Catharines Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: Wishing you were here
Visiting from the Hoag Galaxy
#10659: Dec 22nd 2014 at 7:39:16 AM

Yep, and only complete morons would be against some sort of distributed income, because, how would people buy the products without any money to pay with?

Granted, if the same business owners we have now are still in charge by that point, I wouldn't put it past them.

[up] The current government in the States maybe, but the government is supposed to deal with stuff that can't or shouldn't make a profit that is still necessary.

edited 22nd Dec '14 7:40:10 AM by Zendervai

Not Three Laws compliant.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10660: Dec 22nd 2014 at 7:56:05 AM

Even with post-scarcity economic policy, there will still be a need to provide services that are not inherently profitable, and someone has to collect and distribute the money. I imagine that, until/unless we pass a true singularity of human consciousness, it will also always be necessary to guard society against those who would attempt to cheat and insure society against disasters of various sorts.

Government has been described, quite accurately, as an insurance company with an army.

edited 22nd Dec '14 7:59:20 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#10661: Dec 22nd 2014 at 9:38:35 AM

A thought i just had is that the financial sector could become all-consuming: when all you have left is capital, all the average person can do to get ahead is invest. We would still need a government-set minimum income, but the everyman's way of getting ahead would be backing the right horses with his stock portfolio, since he or she can't actually work for a living, but still want to better themselves.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10662: Dec 22nd 2014 at 9:45:30 AM

In that setting, how does anyone without capital acquire the capital with which to invest?

Also, there's no need to expect that work will become inherently obsolete: there will still be jobs available, particularly in technical, engineering, social, and government fields. It's just that we will no longer insist that every person must work or be considered worthless.

The real trick in such a society is to keep the masses (the proletariat, as it were) happy, occupied, and involved — it would be far too easy to give them just enough to maintain the illusion of post-scarcity while the Masters of Everything hoard the real wealth to themselves.

edited 22nd Dec '14 9:53:21 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#10663: Dec 22nd 2014 at 10:10:36 AM

Yeah, i suppose i'm portraying it as a little too broad. But i still couldn't see a workforce participation rate larger than about 1/3rd of what we're at right now, though that would balance a little on definitions of "self employment," which would explode. In terms of keeping people involved, the arts and sports would be the saviors, more people with more space to make their leisure hobbies into a life's work.

Edit: And use their free time for political involvement to provide an eternal counterbalance to the facts of capital's predominance.

edited 22nd Dec '14 10:12:26 AM by Ogodei

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10664: Dec 22nd 2014 at 11:27:31 AM

The problem is that human nature works against us. As we've seen over the past 80 years or so, it requires extreme privation to generate enough outrage to generate meaningful social and political change, yet improvements in conditions lead people to lose interest in politics. That apathy subsequently allows the forces of oppression to slip in and undo the reforms.

I don't know how we'll create a post-scarcity human society that doesn't suffer from the problem of people not caring enough to exercise their franchise to maintain that system. There will always be power cliques; it's human nature. Those cliques will take over unless they are actively quelled, and who quells the quellers?

It's telling that so much of our fiction deals with the subject of failed utopias: no serious writer can imagine a [near] future when humans will no longer require parental supervision, metaphorically speaking. Those that do (like Design for Great-Day — a good read) are set beyond a hypothetical singularity of human consciousness.

edited 22nd Dec '14 11:40:49 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
PotatoesRock The Potato's Choice Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I know
The Potato's Choice
#10665: Dec 23rd 2014 at 11:35:11 AM

US third quarter GDP revised upwards to 5.0%, the best quarterly number in 11 years.

Thanks, Obama.

Many were increasingly of the opinion that they'd all made a big mistake in coming down from the trees in the first place. - Douglas Adams
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#10666: Dec 23rd 2014 at 12:02:30 PM

It's a good, solid number, but it's not sufficient evidence that we're out of the woods yet, especially with government spending still deeply depressed. Still, it's far better than anything Bush got on his watch.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Quag15 Since: Mar, 2012
#10667: Dec 28th 2014 at 7:01:51 AM

Five issues that will make – or break – the world economy in 2015:

Russia and the Ukraine

The Russian economy will go into deep freeze in 2015. Even before the dramatic plunge in the rouble in the weeks running up to Christmas, the central bank was predicting a fall in output of 4.5%. Pushing up interest rates from 10.5% to 17% in one move may well help to stabilise the rouble and prevent further capital flight – but at a cost. Neil Shearing of Capital Economics says history is about to repeat itself; just as after the debt default of 1998, Russia is “staring down the barrel of a deep recession”. The depth of that slump, Shearing says, will depend on what happens to the price of oil and whether the west lifts the economic sanctions that it has gradually been intensifying since last spring.

Two other things are also unclear. Firstly, how Vladimir Putin will respond. The Russian president offered the people a bargain: accept a hard man in the Kremlin in return for rising living standards. That deal will be broken in 2015, and there is no guarantee that it will encourage the Kremlin to take a softer line over Ukraine. On the contrary, a failing economy could spur Putin into acts of nationalist defiance. That would not just intensify the recession; it would also have knock-on effects for Russia’s neighbours and for the eurozone.

The second unknown is whether Russia will be a special case. The fear is that it will set off a chain reaction across other emerging markets that have attracted the copious amounts of footloose capital generated by the quantitative-easing (money-creation) programmes of the world’s central banks. Turkey and Indonesia and are two big countries to look out for.

Oil

In the summer of 2014, a barrel of Brent crude was changing hands at $115 a barrel. By Christmas it could be obtained for barely half that price. The big drop in the oil price is positive for global growth: it puts more spending power in the hands of consumers and it cuts costs for businesses. The link between the cost of crude and the world economy is well established: the long booms of 1948-1973 and the 15-year period that preceded the great recession of 2008-09 were both built on cheap oil. The four recessions of the postwar era (1974-75, 1981-82, 1990-91 and 2008-09) have all been associated with rising oil prices. Trevor Greetham, director of asset allocation at Fidelity Solutions, says: “A low oil price is a stimulus for consumers. Global growth should pick up over 2015 and there are as yet few signs of the kind of inflation that would necessitate meaningful monetary tightening.”

But there is a caveat. Greetham says the plunging oil price could prompt “credit stress”. This would affect governments, such as Russia, Venezuela and Iran, that can only balance their books if the oil price is at $100 a barrel or more. And it would affect the shale gas sector in the US, where much of the investment has been financed by high-yielding but risky junk bonds. As the Bank of England points out in its recent Financial Stability Review: “As US oil and gas exploration firms account for 13% of outstanding debt in US high-yield bond markets, an increase in the preceived or realised credit risk in this sector could lead to sales by investors and potentially illiquidity in the broader high-yield market”. In other words, shale could be the next sub-prime.

China

China will be crucial to the performance of the global economy in 2015. Depending on the yardstick used, it is now the world’s biggest economy. It is also, according to Kenneth Culkier of the Economist magazine, a net exporter of foreign direct investment. China could soon join the select club of countries with a reserve currency.

But 2014 has been an uneasy year, as Beijing has tried to mop up the credit excesses left behind after the growth-at-all-costs approach adopted during the deep downturn of late 2008. Policy makers have been running a tight ship and the constraints on credit have started to bite. Growth will be lower in 2015: the question is how much lower.

A marked slowdown would affect the rest of the world in two big ways. First, exports to China would weaken. This would affect countries such as Germany, which sell the machine tools needed for China’s industrial expansion, and those, such as Australia, that provide China with its raw materials. A sluggish Chinese economy in 2015 will compound a low oil price.

Second, China will export deflation to the rest of the world. The prices of goods leaving China are already falling and that trend will continue. The US and Europe will be flooded with cheap Chinese goods, driving down inflation. In the case of the eurozone, it may result in deflation. Central banks, faced with inflation being well below target, will be cautious about raising interest rates even if their economies are growing at a healthy rate, risking the recreation of the conditions that led to the pre-2007 asset bubbles.

US

Next year will be hugely significant for Janet Yellen and her colleagues at the Federal Reserve, and for global markets. A focus for investors in the new year will be the timing of the first rise in interest rates. Rates have been in a record low range of between zero and 0.25% since December 2008, but the economy has been gaining momentum in recent months. The Fed has already called time on its $4.5tn bond-buying programme, completing its final purchases in October. Winding the clock back to May 2013, then chairman Ben Bernanke triggered a so-called “taper tantrum” when he suggested the Fed might start slowing the rate of its bond-buying sooner than markets were expecting. Investors – hooked on ultra-loose monetary policy since the crisis fully erupted in 2008 – took fright and triggered a fresh wave of volatility.

Given we’re talking about the world’s largest economy, speculation on the first rate rise will have repercussions around the world. Investors will scrutinise Fed statements for any change in tone that might indicate when the first increase will come. Until it does come, uncertainty – despised by markets – will reign. At its latest policy meeting in December, the Fed dropped its insistence that rates would be kept on hold for a “considerable period”, replacing it with the message that it could be “patient” about policy changes. Within minutes of the statement, New York’s Dow Jones Industrial Average shot up 1.5%, as investors interpreted it as a signal that there would be no mad rush to raise rates. However, if the economic data in the coming weeks and months continues to reflect a strengthening US economy, the Fed’s patience may wear thin. Expect market volatility when the central bank drops its cautious tone as it paves the way for the first rate rise since the great recession.

Eurozone

The eurozone is the crisis that keeps on giving, and there is every reason to believe this will remain the case in 2015. Mario Draghi, the eloquent president of the European Central Bank, lifted the single currency bloc out of the worst phase of the crisis in the summer of 2012 simply by saying that he would do “whatever it takes” to save the euro. But he now faces one of his biggest challenges yet.

In 2014, the story in the eurozone was one of a recovery that failed to get off the ground and of the mounting threat of deflation. Neither of those problems has gone away, with growth of just 0.2% in the third quarter of 2014 and an annual inflation rate of 0.3% at last count in November. Greece and Spain are already stuck in a deflationary rut and there is concern that a dangerous deflationary spiral will spread to the rest of the region. The fear is that as prices continue to fall, businesses and consumers will delay spending plans as they expect prices to fall further. With a backdrop of weak growth, low oil prices and general lack of inflationary pressures, the ECB’s battle against deflation will continue well into 2015.

Measures announced in 2014 – including charging banks to park cash with the central bank in a bid to encourage more lending – have failed to provide a silver bullet. The bank has one weapon left up its sleeve: full-blown quantitative easing.

So far the eurozone’s policymakers have failed to take the plunge with QE, largely as a result of forceful opposition from Germany. But 2015 could be the year to abandon the hints and throw the kitchen sink at the problem. More weak data from the eurozone will make investors nervy. Failure to press the QE button in the face of weakness could trigger outright panic.

The relevance for the UK is huge: policymakers at the Bank of England and within government have repeatedly warned that fragility in the eurozone is one of the biggest threats to the UK recovery, not least because it is Britain’s biggest trading partner.

edited 28th Dec '14 7:03:11 AM by Quag15

Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#10668: Dec 28th 2014 at 9:31:49 AM

Eurozone will be fun if Syriza takes Greece and rejects the bailout terms. Then it will all start to unravel.

PotatoesRock The Potato's Choice Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I know
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demarquis Who Am I? from Hell, USA Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Buried in snow, waiting for spring
Who Am I?
#10670: Dec 28th 2014 at 12:43:36 PM

Oh the irony...

"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#10671: Dec 28th 2014 at 2:07:51 PM

It's Obama's fault, clearly. He's punishing the good people of Texas for doing the right thing.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
PotatoesRock The Potato's Choice Since: Oct, 2012 Relationship Status: I know
optimusjamie Since: Jun, 2010
#10674: Dec 30th 2014 at 1:36:40 PM

I'm doing some school work on the Vietnam War, and I'd like some information (preferably scholarly articles) about its economic impact in the US and Southeast Asia.

Direct all enquiries to Jamie B Good
Gabrael from My musings Since: Nov, 2011 Relationship Status: Is that a kind of food?
#10675: Dec 30th 2014 at 2:21:25 PM

Can you get a little more specific?

"Psssh. Even if you could catch a miracle on a picture any person would probably delete it to make space for more porn." - Aszur

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