Catalan Independence

So, as the economic maelstrom rumbles on in Europe the latest issue to crop up is Spain's old favourite, Catalonia. Over the past month or so calls for an independent Catalan state have gotten louder and louder as Spain's economic situation bleakens.

First, some background. Catalonia is a Spanish autonomous community in the north-east of the Iberian peninsular. The area served as a heartland of Republican activity during the Spanish Civil War and, during Franco's dictatorship, the Catalan people were heavily repressed.

Following Franco's death and the adoption of the democratic constitution, Catalonia and other "autonomous communities" received significant levels of devolved power from Madrid and cultural and social identity was largely restored, with the separate Catalan identity fully forged.

The post-2008 economic crisis, however, has driven a wedge between Barcelona and Madrid. Spain is a debt-ridden nation with a struggling economy and a staggering unemployment rate of over 25%. Autonomous regions have been blamed, at least in part, for contributing to the crisis with lavish spending; 6 of the 17 regions required a $23 billion bailout from the already-struggling central government, including Catalonia to the tune of around $6 billion.

However, Catalans argue that about a tenth of their economic output is taken by Madrid and not reinvested into Catalonia. Catalonia is the wealthiest region of Spain and many there feel that they are unfairly subsidizing the rest of the country - about $12 billion a year is diverted towards Madrid while public services in Catalonia (devolved to the government in Barcelona) are struggling.

They also believe that widespread budget cuts and tax hikes by the Madrid government are doing nothing to help people affected by the crisis.

In 2010 the centre-right, Catalan-nationalist party Convergence and Union (Ci U) returned to power in Catalonia and Artur Mas assumed the Presidency. On 20 September the Spanish government rejected the Ci U's proposed fiscal pact that would see the Catalan government take greater control over its $260 billion economy. This was just nine days after 1.5m people took to the streets of Barcelona in a nationalist rally; this was followed by loud calls for independence in the latest El Classico.

Many Catalan nationalists feel that over the years Madrid has opposed and even tried to reverse regional autonomy guaranteed in the 1978 constitution. In June a poll put support for independence at around 51%, a record high.

President Mas has now called for snap elections on 25 November. Should his party receive a majority vote, he has threatened to hold a referendum on independence soon after. The Spanish government considers this to be illegal under the Spanish constitution, which says that only the central government can hold referendums and that Spain is indivisible. Some uncomfortable calls have been made to use the Spanish military to prevent an illegal referendum taking place.

So, how do we think this is going to go down? Will Artur Mas call his referendum or will Madrid buckle and hand over further autonomy to Catalonia? How will the crisis effect other autonomous nationalities like the Basques? How will it effect other potential new nations around Europe?

Its tough when you have one region with lots of devolved power and other regions in the same country that do not. Its even more of a pity since it sounds like devolution worked out well for the Catalans. The real solution here is to give all the regions the same autonomy Catalonia has, but keep the revenue sharing. So I guess I'm against succession.

^

Sounds like the situation for England within the UK — all the other parts have devolved assemblies, while England does not.

^^

Methinks you also see the similarities with Scotland, right?

Eh, possibly. There are some similar issues but both contexts are wildly different.

There's a lot of bad blood on both sides here, and nothing is going to be reconciled while Spain's economy is lying in a coma. If either side goes storming off on one here then it's going to be an awful mess to clean up.

How many Catalans out the total publicly support the idea of seccession/independence?

Some news talk about <50% of catalonian citizens, but depends a lot of the sources. Its hard to know.

OP talks about central goverment blaming corruption in the autonomous communities, well, its true, I will not say that is worse than in Madrid (both are in really bad place) but it exist.

Catalonia its one of the most rich communities in Spain, that leads to have to give money to less development ones. They hold a similar speech that the German one with Spain.

There´s election in Galicia and Euskadi (Basque Country?) in a week or so, they have nationalist parties too, stronger in the last ones but there´s little noise outside of them.

Lets see what happens.

edited 15th Oct '12 12:34:24 PM by Picheleiro

Spain does not make sense as a single country, ruled by those arrogant folks at Madrid. Never has. Never will.

Catalunya should be either independent or with a damned sight more autonomy than it has at present.

—scratches head—

So why has the union of Castille y Leon lasted as long as it has?

Castille and Leon are NOT Catalunya. The Catalunyans have historically hated every other part of Spain, for pretty good reasons. Just look at what the Spanish version of the Office of the Holy Inquisition did there. That bunch of cunts were the King and Queen of Spain's attack dogs ever since Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castille. Francisco Franco, from Ferrol in Galicia, was just the latest incarnation of the kind of thinking that caused such carnage.

...One, what pronunciation is that? Two, where is this vehemence coming from? Three, I wasn't being literal. That's just the point in history I thought would eventually lead to the unification of Spain.

It's hard to say, but it's almost certainly higher than it's been in over a generation. It'll only get worse for Madrid before it gets better, especially if economic recovery and spending on public services doesn't return quickly. Given how unlikely that is, the only plausible option I can see is further devolution - but how that'll affect things in the long run is anybodies guess.

On a somewhat related note, the Flemish Nationalist Party are now the biggest party in Flanders.

http://www.gencat.cat/index_eng.htm

See name of website in top left hand corner.

Isn't it a bit harsh to go back to the Spanish inquisition as reasons for national enmities?

Nope. Seeing as how Franco's Fascist regime had exactly the same goals, motivation and doctrinal basis as the Inquisition. With, it has to be said, the backing of the Spanish monarchy. Sure, they sing a different song in public but fuck that noise.

A Musical Interlude:

Guess what I'm watching?

edited 16th Oct '12 3:25:08 PM by Greenmantle

Isn't the King popular, though? And did good stuff?

...Do you live over there?

According to my exhaustive research (cough wikipedia cough) the reigning Spanish king restored democratic rule after Franco's death and had a key role in foiling a coup in 1981 and more recently dissed Chavez. I'm not sure what the current poll numbers are, but I would rate him a pretty solid guy.

I saw that time he told chavez to STFU! I like that king.

I find it weird that there are certain European regions supposedly looking for independence (Basque region, Catalonia, Scotland, Flanders, etc.) now because of the "economic climate". Even though they've been part of the bigger country for centuries already, unlike, for example, Tibet.

Catalonians usually attribute loss of independence to 1714 Siege of Barcelona. Scotland only joined in Acts of Union in 1707. Basque nationalism develop after Carlist War in 1839. Belgium only created on 1831. They are become part of bigger countries only for 200-300 years, not that long.

And depending on your view on vassal status, Tibet is not that 'recent' either. Tibet become vassal of Yuan and Qing. so from chinese point of view they have united for 700plus years.

WARK

edited 17th Oct '12 5:35:38 AM by Colonial1.1

Nice of you to bring up the Yuan and Qing though, very interesting cases. So the Tibetans are vassals of a Mongolian dynasty, in China. LOL Then they became vassals again of another dynasty, this time of a Manchurian dynasty, in China. LOL

Which still doesn't counter my assertions that Tibet was separate from the rest of China quite recently.

edited 17th Oct '12 5:52:13 AM by entropy13

Seems pretty reasonable, actually. If your distinctive nation/region/whatever is under the rule of a powerful, economically strong country, the time likely isn't ripe for independence: your own people are getting some economic benefit from the good times, and independence will be a correspondingly tougher sell. If the economy goes way south or becomes unstable, you've just removed a MAJOR reason for the region's citizens to put up with their dependent status.

Not to mention Vassalege and "being part of" are different things. being a vassal back then was something like a protectorate that also had to pay tribute.

Major perceived reason. At this point, if Catalonia is too used to being tied up with the rest of Spain independence might just end up tanking them far longer than sticking with it. If they have reasons other than economic, I guess I say just give it to them, but considering they've been joined so long I think independence is kind of a touch sell regardless.

Particularly if Catalonia is a revenue producer, what reason does Spain have to give it full independence? I just can't see this particular issue going anywhere at all.