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Overhauling page creation
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Overhauling page creation:

 76 Septimus Heap, Mon, 10th Dec '12 11:22:15 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Oook. Just split subpages off the namespace system.

[up][up]Oh eek Morgan, that sounds like the current Crowner creation system. Which... sucks.

Seriously, I have to go to Troperville > Administrivia > Ctrl+F for "crowner" > How Crowners Work > Ctrl+F for "create" > copy and paste the url > modify the url...

It's crazy. There should just be a Create Crowner tool in the tools menu. It should just be a page with a drop-down menu for crowner type and a field for article.

edited 11th Dec '12 7:57:41 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
 78 Fighteer, Tue, 11th Dec '12 9:49:29 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Mods have one of those for use with attaching crowners to forum threads. I suppose there's a good reason Eddie didn't make it publicly accessible.
Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 79 lu 127, Tue, 11th Dec '12 9:56:48 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Shrug, I just type the URL.
茨の森の眠り姫
千年夢を見る眠り姫
 80 Septimus Heap, Tue, 11th Dec '12 10:02:34 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I've put the crownercreate links on my troper page, for the record.

A better way to understand subpages which might be numbered is to think of the tabs like YMMV, Analysis, Main, and so forth as chapters in a booklet about the trope or work. The YMMV tab could have 10 pages, for example. A tab with multiple pages would show a next/prev and the pagename would be something like WorkTitle: YMMV/4 if you were on the 4th page of the YMMV tab (or section, or chapter, whichever word works better for you).

edited 11th Dec '12 1:53:20 PM by FastEddie

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
World's Toughest Milkman
I dunno. There's something to be said for just being able to go to the Literature subpage for a trope when you want to add an example, rather than searching through a bunch of numbered subpages to find where the Literature examples are stashed.

Likewise, if you're adding an example to a work page, it's nice to be able to go to "M-S", rather than searching through a bunch of numbered pages to find out where Something goes.

On the other hand, it's silly that SomeTrope.Literature is currently considered a subpage of Main.Literature instead of Main.Sometrope, and the proposal obviously would help with that. If it could be combined with some sort of tagging system to give subpages a name, that might be the best of all possible worlds.

edited 11th Dec '12 4:19:16 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Oh eek Morgan, that sounds like the current Crowner creation system. Which... sucks.

Seriously, I have to go to Troperville > Administrivia > Ctrl+F for "crowner" > How Crowners Work > Ctrl+F for "create" > copy and paste the url > modify the url...

It's crazy. There should just be a Create Crowner tool in the tools menu. It should just be a page with a drop-down menu for crowner type and a field for article.
One, while I tentatively agree with your point on crowners (though at this point we should probably only have a link to create a crowner from the forums), most crowners work fundamentally the same regardless of what type they are. A redirect creator would be very different from any other type, and types that require picking a namespace work differently from those that don't (and each other). Of course the changing options could be handled other ways, such as with AJAX.

Two, I mentioned that there would be a direct link from the Tools menu to a page with all the page creators, and preferably, nothing else except an explanation of the page types.

I'm fine if everyone instinctively retches at this idea. But my thinking is, most people pulling up a nonexistent page in a non-Main namespace can probably be presumed to be creating either the main type for that namespace, a disambiguation page, or a redirect. Maybe an index. At the very least, if you pull up the page creation form from a red link, you should have the title pre-filled in; the point I'm making here is that you could also have the appropriate page type and, if necessary, namespace pre-selected. This is especially important since the namespace list for disambigs would consist of literally every namespace on the wiki; if you're creating a non-Main disambig straight from the page creation form, you're going to be overwhelmed by the options no matter what.

This is why I think the page creation tool should at the very least be re-rendered dynamically based on page type, because otherwise even if you pick a work you'd have inappropriate namespace choices. (Though again, are there any disambigs outside Main and the namespaces for works?)
A better way to understand subpages which might be numbered is to think of the tabs like YMMV, Analysis, Main, and so forth as chapters in a booklet about the trope or work. The YMMV tab could have 10 pages, for example. A tab with multiple pages would show a next/prev and the pagename would be something like Work Title: YMMV/4 if you were on the 4th page of the YMMV tab (or section, or chapter, whichever word works better for you).
For the reasons Xtifr mentions, this would work best if the pagination were automatic. Even then, it means tropes with split example pages would somewhat arbitrarily work differently from tropes with examples still in folders. Ideally, everything would be in a single source code so you wouldn't need to do too much hunting for the right section, and even then I'm not sure if that will ever be technically feasible for the longest pages.

Some ideas for how people thought this might work, similar to what Xtifr wants, are suggested in the URL models on the first page; essentially, you'd have a trope page like Lampshade Hanging, and the trope page would be subdivided into the subpages Lampshade Hanging.Film, Lampshade Hanging.Literature, etc. Same with works; you'd have The Lord of the Rings.A-C, The Lord of the Rings.D-F, etc. I'm still not clear on whether Septimus is counting the namespaces in the "subpage types" folder on Namespace Sorting as moving to this new system. If so, they would become a special type of subpage that would follow the template of and be linked to others of the same type, so in addition to the ones already mentioned, there would be a The Lord of the Rings.YMMV page that would automatically be formatted like the other YMMV pages and recognized as one, which could itself be subdivided into, say, A-L and M-Z, similar to what Fast Eddie suggests.

If so, I'm starting to think that perhaps the normal examples list could be changed to a special "examples" subpage that would then be subdivided as above; perhaps automatic pagination would become more practical at this point. But now we're potentially getting into broader questions as to the future shape of the wiki. Regardless, whichever path we take, it's worth noting that many tropes (especially the ones with lots of examples) have examples pages for individual works that those works also use as examples pages of their own, and we need to figure out how those would be classified. This also affects how the Moments pages, WMG, Fridge, and Headscratchers would work under this new system.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:48:45 AM by MorganWick

 84 Septimus Heap, Wed, 12th Dec '12 6:28:10 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
^I have some difficulty at parsing that post. Do you say that we should split current pages into more than one page? Because it surely sounds like that.

What part are you referring to?

If it's the bit about the "examples" subpage, it basically means that, if you see splitting up pages the way Fast Eddie does, then to use his example, a YMMV page that's split into different example pages might not have a single "main" page, but rather different pages for different parts of the YMMV page. If that's the case, then splits by medium or by alphabetical groups are really "paginating" the example section, not the whole page which would include the description. I actually toyed with the idea of making the display of the description constant and only rotating the display of the various "chapters" and their display of their various pages.

I'm not actually crazy about that idea, but it did come to me as I was writing that post.

 86 Fighteer, Wed, 12th Dec '12 1:57:55 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
I put together (in Access, since that's what I know) some concept ideas for an article creation "dialog", as it were, that would come up if you attempted to edit an article that doesn't exist.

http://s45.beta.photobucket.com/user/fighteer/library/TV%20Tropes

This presumes that we move the subpage system to a new format, of course.

The idea is that the creation request would go into a queue for some form of approval. If you launch a trope, you must supply either a TRS or YKTTW link to prove that you did the necessary work.

The "Special" tab is for Useful Notes, Administrivia, disambiguation, redirects, etc. Anything that isn't a trope, work, or index.
Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 87 Septimus Heap, Wed, 12th Dec '12 2:01:32 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
^I like it, but...YKTTW Guidelines:
It's not mandatory.
See 6th Sep '12 11:03:25 PM in the page history.

 88 Fighteer, Wed, 12th Dec '12 2:04:20 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
We could permit an override with moderator approval. In fact, if all article creation requests go into a queue, they could be approved and the author automatically notified that the page can now be edited.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:08:09 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 89 Septimus Heap, Wed, 12th Dec '12 2:09:50 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
On the trope thing ... while I could in theory agree since most of the trope pages made without YKTTW are bad, this does make me somewhat sceptical.

 90 Fighteer, Wed, 12th Dec '12 2:11:26 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
It would hardly need to be that strict. And we might be able to waive the queue for media articles — it's tropes and other stuff in Main that give us headaches.

There could be other rules too, such as requiring new accounts to get approval for all articles.

Another possibility is levels of conditional approval. If you try to make a new Main article without a YKTTW or TRS link, you must have approval. If you do have a launched YKTTW or a TRS link, you can make the page immediately but the article is flagged so moderators have to review it — possibly even greylisted so it's only visible to the author and the mods.

Work articles are automatically approved but still enter the review queue so we can withdraw them (i.e., cut the page) if needed. Since subpages would not be on this system (and they're one of the most frequently created types of articles), they could be made without going through it, as long as they are one of the registered types.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:18:10 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
The thing I'm most wary of is the index dropdown. We should be encouraging indexing, but I'm not sure that's the way to do it.

Also, how come you're lumping all page types that aren't "trope", "work", and "index" into a "special" tab, and how come there are both radio buttons and tabs for each option?

 92 Septimus Heap, Wed, 12th Dec '12 2:29:22 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
We haven't already worked out which namespace falls under which option.

Somewhat back in the thread it was proposed to allow only approved namespaces (and subpages).

 93 Fighteer, Wed, 12th Dec '12 2:40:12 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
This is a concept, let's not forget. As for why a radio button and a tab, that's just an Access thing - the idea is that each choice of article type exposes a different set of options pertinent to that type.

Since I was screenshotting the thing and not posting a live form, I didn't take the time to make it functional.

As for the sectioning, I figure that we want to emphasize the primary kinds of articles on the wiki: tropes and media. The actual hierarchy and organization is subject to review, but clearly "Namespace" as a concept doesn't apply to tropes, and it's actually more useful to someone launching a work article to assign it to a "Media Category" rather than a "Namespace", since we can easily assign those to each other ("Film (Live Action)" goes in the Film namespace, etc.).

All the other stuff that I lumped in "Special" is not part of the core mission of the wiki, and there isn't anything in particular to distinguish it in terms of secondary information, so putting it on a separate tab seemed like the way to go.

edited 12th Dec '12 2:57:17 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 94 VmKid, Wed, 12th Dec '12 5:49:58 PM from Shuggazoom City Relationship Status: Robosexual
Nerdy. Weird. AWESOME.
Maybe to lighten the load on the mods and to get articles approved faster, we can assemble another team, similar to the P5, who have proven themselves to be familiar with the ins and outs of properly launching an article. This panel would have options like "Launch" "Scrap" and "Send back to YKTTW" for good articles, crap articles, and articles that have potential but still need to be hammered out.
Morgan, I want to reply to your reply, but my brain melted. :( Sorry.

I do like the idea [up] to have a "launch review council" or whatever. The subpage discussion is brain-melty but I think I can comprehend Fighteer's images. I like them, although I'm skeptical that indexing can really be done/coded that way. The thing would have to be programmed to link each Media Category and Special Page species to a namespace and a page type, but that seems trivial and it's a good idea to automate that instead of making those actual options on the widget. Getting the doohickey to spit out a template for each sort of page (trope, work, and index at the very least) would be very helpful, if possible.

As for YKTTW not being necessary for tropes... if you don't have a YKTTW or a TRS, then a trope/an article in Main should require moderator approval.
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
 96 Septimus Heap, Wed, 12th Dec '12 10:37:37 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Um - does the creation of main pages require either a thread or YKTTW or mod approval or a combo?

I think what would help us out here is, why did Fast Eddie feel the need to add that line to YKTTW Guidelines, at a time when the general attitude among forumites seems to have been leaning more and more towards making it mandatory? I'd like to think that might help point the way to some better solutions...

 98 Fighteer, Thu, 13th Dec '12 6:48:15 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
[up][up] That is what we're hoping to have, yes.

[up] Eddie doesn't want YKTTW to be seen as 100% mandatory. It's a wheat and chaff situation; just because the ratio of good to bad is vastly higher with YKTTW doesn't mean that you never get anything good without it. That's why we don't automatically cutlist articles made without YKTTW.

edited 13th Dec '12 6:49:30 AM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 99 Septimus Heap, Thu, 13th Dec '12 8:07:14 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I'll elaborate a bit more on the concept in @86:
  • The main concern I have of any approval/queue process is that it will lead to a "black box" scenario where you don't get any idea on how input X leads to output (approval/disapproval) Y. This is still an issue with the Cut List and in lesser measure with hollers.
  • We'll need to delimit which sort of page needs approval in form of YKTTW, thread or moderator one or are free to do. I think we could set the choice selection up along with a listing of approved namespaces/subpages (I assume we'll move them to a new system)
  • I am not sure if requiring approval for new accounts is really that useful. From my sight on new pages, page creation issues strike even older accounts.
  • We already have a new pages queue (which is already used for controlling) here. We don't need redundant lists, in other words.
  • @91 brings up a valid point that the way our indexing system works isn't really suited for a selection in the page creation system. Rather, I'd suggest to create an unindexed pages list like the current untyped pages list that is filled with unindexed pages and emptied when the entries are indexed.
  • There is also the question how to work with locked pages there. IMO these page creation controls could easily making autolocking unnecessary, especially since they are a bit hard to work with.

 100 Fighteer, Thu, 13th Dec '12 8:15:44 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
Good thoughts, Septimus. My responses:

  • If I were designing the system, feedback would be automated at all levels. You'd get a PM or some other form of notification when any request that you submitted is addressed.
  • That's my thought as well.
  • While it's true that even established accounts can do dumb things, most pure junk page launches are done by newbies. There's also the issue of namespacing, which this system is designed to address.
  • That's not a queue, it's a report. To make it a queue, there would have to be some sort of "approve/deny" system accessible to people with a certain security level.
  • Yes, we'd need to fix indexing for that idea to work. It's a proposal, but getting newly created pages indexed is one of our headaches.
  • Locking a cut page would be redundant with this system, except that it might set up an auto-reject or at least force the request into the moderator-approval queue. "The article you're trying to create was previously cut. Your request must be evaluated by a moderator." Or some such.
Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
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