A Wizard boyOook. Just split subpages off the namespace system.
Oh eek Morgan, that sounds like the current Crowner creation system. Which... sucks. Seriously, I have to go to Troperville > Administrivia > Ctrl+F for "crowner" > How Crowners Work > Ctrl+F for "create" > copy and paste the url > modify the url... It's crazy. There should just be a Create Crowner tool in the tools menu. It should just be a page with a drop-down menu for crowner type and a field for article.
edited 11th Dec '12 7:57:41 AM by ArcadesSabboth
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
A Wizard boyI've put the crownercreate links on my troper page, for the record.
A better way to understand subpages which might be numbered is to think of the tabs like YMMV, Analysis, Main, and so forth as chapters in a booklet about the trope or work. The YMMV tab could have 10 pages, for example. A tab with multiple pages would show a next/prev and the pagename would be something like WorkTitle: YMMV/4 if you were on the 4th page of the YMMV tab (or section, or chapter, whichever word works better for you).
edited 11th Dec '12 1:53:20 PM by FastEddie
World's Toughest MilkmanI dunno. There's something to be said for just being able to go to the Literature subpage for a trope when you want to add an example, rather than searching through a bunch of numbered subpages to find where the Literature examples are stashed. Likewise, if you're adding an example to a work page, it's nice to be able to go to "M-S", rather than searching through a bunch of numbered pages to find out where Something goes. On the other hand, it's silly that SomeTrope.Literature is currently considered a subpage of Main.Literature instead of Main.Sometrope, and the proposal obviously would help with that. If it could be combined with some sort of tagging system to give subpages a name, that might be the best of all possible worlds.
edited 11th Dec '12 4:19:16 PM by Xtifr
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Oh eek Morgan, that sounds like the current Crowner creation system. Which... sucks. Seriously, I have to go to Troperville > Administrivia > Ctrl+F for "crowner" > How Crowners Work > Ctrl+F for "create" > copy and paste the url > modify the url... It's crazy. There should just be a Create Crowner tool in the tools menu. It should just be a page with a drop-down menu for crowner type and a field for article.One, while I tentatively agree with your point on crowners (though at this point we should probably only have a link to create a crowner from the forums), most crowners work fundamentally the same regardless of what type they are. A redirect creator would be very different from any other type, and types that require picking a namespace work differently from those that don't (and each other). Of course the changing options could be handled other ways, such as with AJAX. Two, I mentioned that there would be a direct link from the Tools menu to a page with all the page creators, and preferably, nothing else except an explanation of the page types. I'm fine if everyone instinctively retches at this idea. But my thinking is, most people pulling up a nonexistent page in a non-Main namespace can probably be presumed to be creating either the main type for that namespace, a disambiguation page, or a redirect. Maybe an index. At the very least, if you pull up the page creation form from a red link, you should have the title pre-filled in; the point I'm making here is that you could also have the appropriate page type and, if necessary, namespace pre-selected. This is especially important since the namespace list for disambigs would consist of literally every namespace on the wiki; if you're creating a non-Main disambig straight from the page creation form, you're going to be overwhelmed by the options no matter what. This is why I think the page creation tool should at the very least be re-rendered dynamically based on page type, because otherwise even if you pick a work you'd have inappropriate namespace choices. (Though again, are there any disambigs outside Main and the namespaces for works?)
A better way to understand subpages which might be numbered is to think of the tabs like YMMV, Analysis, Main, and so forth as chapters in a booklet about the trope or work. The YMMV tab could have 10 pages, for example. A tab with multiple pages would show a next/prev and the pagename would be something like Work Title: YMMV/4 if you were on the 4th page of the YMMV tab (or section, or chapter, whichever word works better for you).For the reasons Xtifr mentions, this would work best if the pagination were automatic. Even then, it means tropes with split example pages would somewhat arbitrarily work differently from tropes with examples still in folders. Ideally, everything would be in a single source code so you wouldn't need to do too much hunting for the right section, and even then I'm not sure if that will ever be technically feasible for the longest pages. Some ideas for how people thought this might work, similar to what Xtifr wants, are suggested in the URL models on the first page; essentially, you'd have a trope page like Lampshade Hanging, and the trope page would be subdivided into the subpages Lampshade Hanging.Film, Lampshade Hanging.Literature, etc. Same with works; you'd have The Lord of the Rings.A-C, The Lord of the Rings.D-F, etc. I'm still not clear on whether Septimus is counting the namespaces in the "subpage types" folder on Namespace Sorting as moving to this new system. If so, they would become a special type of subpage that would follow the template of and be linked to others of the same type, so in addition to the ones already mentioned, there would be a The Lord of the Rings.YMMV page that would automatically be formatted like the other YMMV pages and recognized as one, which could itself be subdivided into, say, A-L and M-Z, similar to what Fast Eddie suggests. If so, I'm starting to think that perhaps the normal examples list could be changed to a special "examples" subpage that would then be subdivided as above; perhaps automatic pagination would become more practical at this point. But now we're potentially getting into broader questions as to the future shape of the wiki. Regardless, whichever path we take, it's worth noting that many tropes (especially the ones with lots of examples) have examples pages for individual works that those works also use as examples pages of their own, and we need to figure out how those would be classified. This also affects how the Moments pages, WMG, Fridge, and Headscratchers would work under this new system.
edited 12th Dec '12 2:48:45 AM by MorganWick
A Wizard boy^I have some difficulty at parsing that post. Do you say that we should split current pages into more than one page? Because it surely sounds like that.
What part are you referring to? If it's the bit about the "examples" subpage, it basically means that, if you see splitting up pages the way Fast Eddie does, then to use his example, a YMMV page that's split into different example pages might not have a single "main" page, but rather different pages for different parts of the YMMV page. If that's the case, then splits by medium or by alphabetical groups are really "paginating" the example section, not the whole page which would include the description. I actually toyed with the idea of making the display of the description constant and only rotating the display of the various "chapters" and their display of their various pages. I'm not actually crazy about that idea, but it did come to me as I was writing that post.
http://s45.beta.photobucket.com/user/fighteer/library/TV%20Tropes This presumes that we move the subpage system to a new format, of course. The idea is that the creation request would go into a queue for some form of approval. If you launch a trope, you must supply either a TRS or YKTTW link to prove that you did the necessary work. The "Special" tab is for Useful Notes, Administrivia, disambiguation, redirects, etc. Anything that isn't a trope, work, or index.
A Wizard boy^I like it, but...YKTTW Guidelines:
It's not mandatory.See 6th Sep '12 11:03:25 PM in the page history.
edited 12th Dec '12 2:08:09 PM by Fighteer
A Wizard boyOn the trope thing ... while I could in theory agree since most of the trope pages made without YKTTW are bad, this does make me somewhat sceptical.
YKTTW or TRS link, you must have approval. If you do have a launched YKTTW or a TRS link, you can make the page immediately but the article is flagged so moderators have to review it — possibly even greylisted so it's only visible to the author and the mods. Work articles are automatically approved but still enter the review queue so we can withdraw them (i.e., cut the page) if needed. Since subpages would not be on this system (and they're one of the most frequently created types of articles), they could be made without going through it, as long as they are one of the registered types.
edited 12th Dec '12 2:18:10 PM by Fighteer
The thing I'm most wary of is the index dropdown. We should be encouraging indexing, but I'm not sure that's the way to do it. Also, how come you're lumping all page types that aren't "trope", "work", and "index" into a "special" tab, and how come there are both radio buttons and tabs for each option?
A Wizard boyWe haven't already worked out which namespace falls under which option. Somewhat back in the thread it was proposed to allow only approved namespaces (and subpages).
edited 12th Dec '12 2:57:17 PM by Fighteer
Nerdy. Weird. AWESOME.Maybe to lighten the load on the mods and to get articles approved faster, we can assemble another team, similar to the P5, who have proven themselves to be familiar with the ins and outs of properly launching an article. This panel would have options like "Launch" "Scrap" and "Send back to YKTTW" for good articles, crap articles, and articles that have potential but still need to be hammered out.
Morgan, I want to reply to your reply, but my brain melted. :( Sorry. I do like the idea to have a "launch review council" or whatever. The subpage discussion is brain-melty but I think I can comprehend Fighteer's images. I like them, although I'm skeptical that indexing can really be done/coded that way. The thing would have to be programmed to link each Media Category and Special Page species to a namespace and a page type, but that seems trivial and it's a good idea to automate that instead of making those actual options on the widget. Getting the doohickey to spit out a template for each sort of page (trope, work, and index at the very least) would be very helpful, if possible. As for YKTTW not being necessary for tropes... if you don't have a YKTTW or a TRS, then a trope/an article in Main should require moderator approval.
Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
A Wizard boyUm - does the creation of main pages require either a thread or YKTTW or mod approval or a combo?
I think what would help us out here is, why did Fast Eddie feel the need to add that line to YKTTW Guidelines, at a time when the general attitude among forumites seems to have been leaning more and more towards making it mandatory? I'd like to think that might help point the way to some better solutions...
YKTTW to be seen as 100% mandatory. It's a wheat and chaff situation; just because the ratio of good to bad is vastly higher with YKTTW doesn't mean that you never get anything good without it. That's why we don't automatically cutlist articles made without YKTTW.
edited 13th Dec '12 6:49:30 AM by Fighteer
A Wizard boyI'll elaborate a bit more on the concept in @86:
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