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Needs Help: Japanese School Club get usage counts

 26 shimaspawn, Sat, 13th Oct '12 1:39:13 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
A lot of American media set in schools focuses on school clubs, mainly on whichever one the protagonists happen to be in. Glee focuses on Glee Club. Newspaper clubs tend to show up a lot like in Sabrina the Teenage Witch or in Smallville. Student government shows up a lot. Yes, there are a lot of sports clubs, but they are far from the only clubs that show up in Western media.

I think the biggest thing is that Japan has more shows with school age students aimed at adults than the Western world does. As such you see more school activities in general. Right now Glee is about the only mainstream show set at school aimed at adults. And guess what? It's about non-sports clubs.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 27 m8e, Sat, 13th Oct '12 2:15:39 PM from Sweden Relationship Status: Wanna dance with somebody
This might be two different but closely related tropes. The american clubs have to fit in somehow with education/sports(sports, theather, glee, cheerleading, year book, schools newspaper, model UN, chess club etc), and if I understand this right these are just Extracurricular activities that might(or might not) have teachers, These can even be included in the normal curriculum(ie students have to chose one) and often they are just a choosable activities and not a clubs.

But the japanese variety is always clubs and is quite often depicted as something useless lika a "woodglue club" or as A Bunch Of Magical Girls Starting A Club As A Cover For Their Fight Against the monster of the week.

edited 13th Oct '12 2:20:35 PM by m8e

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 28 shimaspawn, Sat, 13th Oct '12 2:17:03 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Er, I'm not sure what you're getting at but the American version works pretty much exactly like the Japanese version in media. It might be slightly different in American schools, but in media the only difference is that Japan sets more things at school and thus has more examples of anything that happens at school. That's it.

edited 13th Oct '12 2:18:01 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 29 Noaqiyeum, Sat, 13th Oct '12 9:07:00 PM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Ace: What I and I assume Heatth were talking about was one Useful Notes page that would cover the similarities and differences between school clubs in the United States and Japan and any other cultures anyone felt like adding.
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Japanese School Club describes how to depict clubs in fiction. A Useful Notes page would probably describe clubs in real life. One can write a Useful Notes page, but I am not sure if one can transform Japanese School Club into a Useful Notes page.

I support the idea to broaden Japanese School Club to include other nations. I think that examples for other nations should be on the page, but no one has added the while "Japanese" is in title. However, I have nothing to contribute. I know about US school clubs, but I remember nothing about how fiction depicts US school clubs.

I cannot find a Useful Notes page about school systems in general. Perhaps there should be such a page; it would define terms like "middle school" and "public school", and explain about school buses, teacher lounges and such. School clubs might go on that page. Sorry, I have no time to create the page now.
 
[up]Eh, the Japanese School Club page doesn't seem to be much focused on fiction, no. Yeah, a single line in the in the first paragraph as well as two other short paragraphs. The most descriptive parts, however, seems to generic, real life talking.

Which isn't how a Useful Note should be, anyway? Although these pages talk about Real Life, they also try to tie it to their usage in midia, doesn't it? We are a media wiki, after all. The current page doesn't seem to be about a trope. It is too generic and devoid of meaning. It is just about any (Japanese) work which have school clubs at some point.

A proper trope would be when a school club are commonly used in a namer that differ vastly from reality or for more specific recurrent types. Which is why I proposed creating the "School Club Story" and "Wacky School Club" tropes early.

Also, yeah, Noaqiyeum, an Useful Note can be for all kinds of School Clubs all around the world. Probably with specific sections for US school clubs and Japanese ones, since they are more prevalent in this wiki, but no need to restrict ourselves here. It can also become an Index for proper School Club tropes. Can an Useful Note be a Index?

PS:I also would support a Useful Note about school systems. Japanese school system is surprisingly similar to Brazilian one, so I never got lost, but the American one confuses me sometimes. Not to mention the British houses thing which is apparently not restricted to Harry Potter*.

edited 19th Oct '12 5:57:04 AM by Heatth

 32 Dannebrog Spy, Fri, 19th Oct '12 2:30:05 PM from Copenhagen, Denmark
Given that the trope is about something which also exist in real life, it isn't that surprising, that the description match. But i doubt anyone would be against it, if there were added more about clubs in fiction, to example things which are different from real life.

Yes, there are quite a few examples which are just "There is a X in Y", but that's a problem most tropes have. You could make a trope named Crazy School Club and people would still come with such examples without telling why the clubs in question are crazy.
English is an international language, but it doesn't mean that everyone speak it on a daily basis.
[up]My point is there is no much going for the trope. There is no narrative meaning. As the page is written now, it is just something that happens, not a real trope. The description don't elaborate why the trope is used in a work. This doesn't sound like a real trope for me. More like an Useful Note.

We do have an actual trope called School Clubs Are Serious Business. I wonder how many examples could be placed there.

 35 Dannebrog Spy, Tue, 23rd Oct '12 1:06:09 PM from Copenhagen, Denmark
I have tried to expand the trope definitions with several things like other types of clubs, the advisor and enemies of the clubs. Someone may perhaps want to help with my english thought.
English is an international language, but it doesn't mean that everyone speak it on a daily basis.
What happens to examples on Japanese School Club that do not qualify for School Clubs Are Serious Business? Do we just cut such examples?

Meanwhile, I discovered that TV Tropes already has Useful Notes for the American Educational System and the British Education System. I had missed those pages because there is no obvious way to reach them from the main Useful Notes page. (The correct answer is to Useful Notes => "Geography" folder => continent => nation => school. I was looking for "school" or "education" and did not think to look through "Geography".) To fix this, I created a new index, School Systems.

I also noticed that Club President redirects to Japanese School Club. This wrongly suggests that school clubs outside Japan never have club presidents. In the USA, some middle and high school clubs depend on teachers for leadership, but student leadership may exist; for example, the school newspaper or literary magazine might have a student as chief editor. The title "president" usually belongs to the leader of the Student Government Association, who oversees all student clubs. At college or university, a student club might have a literal "president".
 
 37 Marq FJA, Mon, 12th Nov '12 11:37:46 AM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
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Bump. What happened to the School Club Story and Wacky Implausible School Club proposals?
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 38 Septimus Heap, Sat, 26th Jan '13 1:51:55 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
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So, reading through this thread, there is some ambiguity about whether this trope is Japan-specific. Anybody mind crownering this question?

 39 lu 127, Sat, 26th Jan '13 4:11:51 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Checking over the examples: There are many Zero Context Examples, and a Not a Subversion. There is no connection between said examples, other than "it's a club in a Japanese school".

I see a number of possible actual tropes to split (if we don't already have them), and while I've mostly seen them in Japanese works, I don't think they should be restricted:

  • Tiny Student Club: The club is composed of only two or three people, and the participants (usually nice but not very popular folks) are trying to keep it afloat and gather more people. (Robotics;Notes)
  • Student Club Coverup: The student club is in fact just a coverup for an organisation with some other, usually supernaturally-oriented purpose, and the protagonists are using the benefits (funding, excuse to meet after school without unpleasant questions) to keep up The Masquerade. (Persona 3, Digimon Adventure 02)

If we don't have them, they should be YKTTW'ed. I'd be willing to take them. Otherwise, the page is Useful Notes and doesn't need examples, as they present no meaningful pattern.
小さく揺れた向日葵
 40 Dannebrog Spy, Sat, 26th Jan '13 5:38:15 AM from Copenhagen, Denmark
The Tiny Student Club sounds a lot like the Club Stub.

More generally speaking then there are all sort of different clubs, which the examples naturally shows - except of course the Zero Contest Examples but that's a problem all tropes are dealing with. School Clubs can however be interesting in several ways:
  • They can be the primary setting or an important part of a work. K-On! in example mainly take place in the light music club. While Ouran High School Host Club hardly could exist without the whole club concept.
  • The characters choise of club often tell something about them. Are they atlectic, are they into art, do they have an unusually interest, or are they simply just the lazy members of the Go Home Club?
  • For a foreign audience it can be an exotic element, since several nations don't have any school clubs. People from those nations will notice it as something different.
  • And then there are all the weird clubs without basis in reality. The mentioned host club or the amusement club of Yuri Yuri in example.
English is an international language, but it doesn't mean that everyone speak it on a daily basis.
[up]So it looks like what you are saying is that Japanese School Club is is fact covering several possible tropes, which may not be Japan specific but do come up a lot in Japan because School Clubs Are Serious Business there.

Also, School Clubs Are Serious Business itself might need some refining.

School Club Stories, could, like Sports Stories, be for the genre of shows that focus on school clubs. Ouran High School Host Club and K-On! would be obvious Japanese examples, but Glee and High School Musical would be Western example that focus on a glee club and a theatre club respectively.

Also, would someone like to volunteer to create a UsefulNotes.Japanese Education System? I'm sure the stuff about Real Life Japanese schools could fit there.

Edit PS: It looks like a lot of stuff said on this page of the thread was already suggested on the last page. What do we need to do next to make some progress? A crowner on spiting the trope?

edited 26th Jan '13 6:37:40 AM by Catbert

 42 lu 127, Sun, 27th Jan '13 9:33:02 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
[up][up]

First bullet can be a new index. Second point is already covered by our various characterization tropes—the club is interchangeable with anything else that might show prowess in athletics, cooking, etc. Third point is an Audience Reaction and we don't want any more of those. Fourth point is an observation but I'm not sure it's a trope.

[up] Started that page, though it'very barebones.

Student Club Coverup YKTTW
小さく揺れた向日葵
 43 Dannebrog Spy, Sun, 27th Jan '13 1:53:17 PM from Copenhagen, Denmark
[up]You may want to include New Year Same Class and One Gender School as well. The later trope by the way is actually rather similar to this trope. It's a setting for many stories and with a few often related tropes. But many examples only tell that the characters go to an all boys or all girls school or don't even tell the gender at all.

Regarding School Clubs Are Serious Business then only 8 articles link to it. Meanwhile 54 links to Japanese School Club and 91 get redirected from Club President. It's not hard to tell which trope is the popular here.

edited 27th Jan '13 1:53:44 PM by DannebrogSpy

English is an international language, but it doesn't mean that everyone speak it on a daily basis.
 44 lu 127, Sun, 27th Jan '13 1:56:05 PM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Neither is popular. Both are doing poorly, but the problem with School Clubs Are Serious Business is that no one bothered to crosswick it upon creation. Furthermore, School Clubs Are Serious Business is an actual trope. Japanese School Club is trying to be an amalgamation of tropes and failing.
小さく揺れた向日葵
So, is there a enough consensus to start a School Club Stories YKTTW draft?

 46 Dannebrog Spy, Thu, 31st Jan '13 3:18:58 AM from Copenhagen, Denmark
Yeah, it seems so. It's not like this trope is important enough for me to fight for. I just don't like to see a lot of examples just being cut despite actually having contest.
English is an international language, but it doesn't mean that everyone speak it on a daily basis.
 47 lu 127, Wed, 27th Feb '13 8:58:21 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
School Club Stories YKTTW
小さく揺れた向日葵
The YKTTW is stalling out with only a few examples. Either it needs more attention or we need to try another idea.

^ I went through the examples on Japanese School Club and double-checked the works and pared it down to entries I believe could be placed on this index.

  • All of the teams in The Prince of Tennis are actually clubs, and their captains are basically the club president.
  • Slam Dunk is about the basket ball club basket
  • Touch focuses on the baseball club
  • Cross Game is also about a High School baseball club
  • Attack No. 1 is about the volleyball club
  • The Cherry Project is about the skating club and stars a wannbe figure skater
  • Captain Tsubasa is about the soccer club
  • The amefuto (American-style football) team in Eyeshield 21
  • All the main heroines in HeartCatch Pretty Cure! are members of the fashion club (with Erika as the Club President), though they had some trouble getting it started due to a lack of members. In addition, Tsubomi is also a member of the gardening club, and then there's the Student Council President...
  • Hitohira focuses on two rival clubs, the Drama Club and the Drama Research Society. As in Genshiken, it seems schools are uncomfortable with overlap, and the two must compete to stay official.
  • The Astronomy Club is the focus in Sora no Manimani
  • Yuritetsu is about a railway club - consisting of four high school girls: Hakutsuru Tsurumi who likes riding trains, Mamiko Noto who likes photographing trains, Maron Ishizuka who likes railway station bento, and chairman Hatsune Hino who just enjoys her friendship with the others.
  • All of the Mahjong clubs which take parts in the tournaments in Saki and it's spin-off SakiAchiga-hen. Some certainly weirder than other but all with the finale in the nationals as their goal.
  • Sketchbook is about the Art Club.

(NOTE: I am iffy on this one, it is not focused on a club, but most of the routes involve joining a club that plays a part in getting close to the girl you choose, and joingin a club is also a fairly major plot point)

Chu-Bra and Eiken are also club stories, but there is no point in putting them on an index what with them being cut and all.

edited 18th Mar '13 11:04:35 AM by willthiswork

 50 lu 127, Mon, 1st Apr '13 7:47:11 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
School Club Stories has been launched.
小さく揺れた向日葵
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