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Misused: Madness Tropes
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Misused: Madness Tropes get usage counts

 1 Noaqiyeum, Wed, 26th Sep '12 6:21:19 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
I've had this on my to-do list for a while; and wow, is there a lot that needs to be done here. note 

This actually isn't just about Madness Tropes - there are a few other indices with a lot of redundant overlap between them. The main problems I've noticed:
  • Madness Tropes
    • Index has examples on it that are only tangentially related, even for such a broad category as 'madness'. (Driven to Villainy? Chewbacca Defense?)
    • Trope descriptions are unnecessarily loquacious and do not have a standardised format, resulting in walls of text. (Some descriptions are useful, certainly, but "Mad God: When a deity is insane" should not even need to be said.)
    • Tropes are not completely sorted under the right soft-split headings.
    • But the soft-split headings ('Characters', 'Issues', 'Symptoms', 'Ways to Break Character and Twist the Plot', and 'Remedies') overlap with each other somewhat, which might be part of the problem.
  • Split Personality Tropes
  • This Index Has Had a Hard Life
    • Not thriving.
    • I don't think it's being misused, particularly, but given the amount of internal variation it's hard to be sure. (Is the Cloudcuckoolander really implied to have had a hard life?)
    • There is also lot of overlap with the other three categories.
  • Hollywood Psychology... actually seems to be doing okay, but dealing with the other three indices will invariably involve it anyway so I'll make a note of it anyway.

So... what should be done? I do have a few thoughts, but there's also a lot about which I'd like some discussion.

...your thoughts, please?

edited 22nd Oct '12 5:16:37 PM by Noaqiyeum

I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 2 nrjxll, Wed, 26th Sep '12 7:50:36 PM Relationship Status: Not war
My personal opinion has always been that any index with trope descriptions for everything (which, to my knowledge, is currently only Action Adventure Tropes) can have them stay, but they aren't really necessary. So half-hearted efforts like this can be axed pretty easily.

I don't see what the problem of overly-broad indexes is supposed to be, though.

 3 Noaqiyeum, Wed, 26th Sep '12 9:21:21 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
I don't think the broadness of the categories is the problem here. The lack of organisation (on Madness Tropes) and the lack of a clear definition (on Split Personality Tropes and possibly This Index Has Had a Hard Life), on the other hand, is. There's a lot of overlap and misuse between the three, and Split Personality Tropes and This Index Has Had a Hard Life have fewer than ten wicks apiece.

I only really think the broadness of Madness Tropes is problematic because it's so huge that reorganising it will be highly non-trivial.

edited 26th Sep '12 9:21:46 PM by Noaqiyeum

I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 4 Noaqiyeum, Tue, 2nd Oct '12 1:17:35 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
...buuuuuuump?

If no one else cares I guess I'll take it as carte blanche.
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 5 Noaqiyeum, Thu, 11th Oct '12 5:18:58 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Seriously, if I'm the only one who cares about these pages I'll clean it up myself in the manner of my choosing.
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 6 Septimus Heap, Fri, 12th Oct '12 6:19:31 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Fixed the tag. No wonder this didn't gain any interest.

I think that it might be better to put each of these tropes into a TRS thread if their pages are the problem.

Not sure about this page, though.

edited 12th Oct '12 6:21:26 AM by SeptimusHeap

 7 Noaqiyeum, Fri, 12th Oct '12 11:06:00 AM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Well, I thought combining them into a single thread made sense because what's done to fix each of them will most likely affect the others, and to keep threadspace open in TRS. I can create new conversations for Split Personality Tropes and This Index Has Had a Hard Life if you think that would be more productive, though.

What about this page is it that you aren't sure of?

edited 13th Oct '12 2:44:48 PM by Noaqiyeum

I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 8 Noaqiyeum, Sat, 13th Oct '12 3:14:44 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
I tried splitting off Split Personality Tropes, since the work there is to its own thread, but there are 382 threads open in this forum and a current cap of 100.

I've created a sandbox page for each index and have been taking notes and experimenting with categories there: Split Personality Tropes, This Index Has Had a Hard Life, Madness Tropes.

This Index Has Had a Hard Life seems like a good starting point, as the problem there seems relatively straightforward - the page title suggests it's about characters who have endured hardship, and the page description says it's about 'the psychologically broken ... those who are mad, not the why and the how', so it's currently doing the work of an index and an half. So... I've divided it into tropes about characters having had an hard life, and tropes about the psychologically broken. I think we should just redefine the definition to match the title, and move the rest to Madness Tropes. Done.

edited 22nd Oct '12 5:17:59 PM by Noaqiyeum

I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 9 Noaqiyeum, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 4:01:09 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
I think I'm ready to launch Sandbox/This Index Has Had a Hard Life to its proper page. Any suggestions?

Here's the current description.

An index about characters who have had a hard life, the things that happened to them, and how such things have affected and continue to affect them.

See also Madness Tropes - a tragic past can lead to mental disorder, but not all characters who experience tragedy go mad, and not all madness is the result of a tragic past. The former goes here, but the latter does not.
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 10 Madrugada, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 4:15:25 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Looks good to me.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 11 Noaqiyeum, Mon, 22nd Oct '12 5:11:42 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
AAAAAAAAH SOMEONE ELSE IS IN THE THREAD WITH ME

Oh! Feedback! Yay! Okay, then, I've gone ahead and amended This Index Has Had a Hard Life accordingly.

I'm still working on Sandbox/Split Personality Tropes and Sandbox/Madness Tropes - I have some provisional lists on both, but there are a lot of tropes I simply don't remember the meaning of, so I'm slowly working my way through and reviewing them.
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 12 Noaqiyeum, Thu, 20th Dec '12 2:53:08 AM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Oops... I left this for long enough that the sandbox pages were deleted. >_<

Here's the progress I've made on Split Personality Tropes. There's absolutely no description, so no wonder there are so many things running together here. Here are the categories I can identify:
Split Personalities - A character's mind is composed of multiple fragments, which are nonetheless all part of the same person. In the aspects more similar to schizophrenia, one personality is in charge but hearing advice from the other(s); in the form closer to dissociative identity disorder, each personality becomes active or seizes control at intervals, usually in response to emotional state or external stimuli. Brainwashing - A character's mind is altered as a result of external interference, either simply changing their personality entirely, or installing a way to make them obedient (often a split personality) that the character is not consciously aware of. Can be sort of an halfway ground between split personalities and possession. Possession - An entity from outside enters the character's mind and controls them. Can sometimes be indistinguishable in practice from split personalities, but frequently is explicitly differentiated by the story and is treated differently, and has many of its own tropes. ''Became Their Own Antithesis - Straightforward, long-term character growth results in a portion of themselves that is at odds with who they were before or the rest of who they are now. Similar to the first form of brainwashing, but natural instead of artificial. None of the above? - Tropes which don't seem to have anything to do with anything.
  • Evil Twin - I can only guess this is a result of Enemy Without and possibly because an evil twin is the most obvious example of a Shadow Archetype Character Foil, because I have no other idea what it's doing here.
  • Heroic Safe Mode - A character going into safe mode experiences a drastic change in behaviour that can be comparable to being taken over by a split personality, but I'm not sure it's the same thing. Up for debate, though.
  • Shadow Archetype - It's a theoretical representation of the traits a character rejects, and obviously is relevant to the discussion of some of these tropes, but it itself is not an example.
I haven't actually sorted these yet

edited 23rd Jan '13 10:58:39 AM by Noaqiyeum

I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 13 Septimus Heap, Wed, 9th Jan '13 9:23:47 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Ok, bumping this in hope I can help get this done.

To address the OP's points:

 14 Noaqiyeum, Sat, 12th Jan '13 1:17:07 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
[gasp] HELP!

  • Wow, I hadn't even noticed that. That's definitely true, and possibly part of why Split Personality Tropes is such a mess.
  • Makes sense. Does that mean we should remove the caveat about non-duplication on Madness Tropes, or no? (I favour 'or no' myself, but I imagine
  • I'm not really suggesting anything yet so much as 'looking for suggestions' (which hasn't gone very well), but I think it might be helpful. When I was trying to reorganise Madness Tropes to clean up tropes in the wrong category it made sense to try to use 'character types' as a subcategory. But there are a lot of tropes - like Mood-Swinger, for instance, which is also an 'issue' - that would belong in other categories as well. Since part of the whole point of cleaning this is to eliminate redundant entries in the index, it might make sense to just create a new index just for insane character types.
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 15 Septimus Heap, Sat, 12th Jan '13 2:03:28 PM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Eh, my question about Madness Tropes was more along the lines of "What is your proposed fix?"

 16 Noaqiyeum, Mon, 14th Jan '13 7:58:00 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Well, I've been trying the reorganise the index into categories that are more meaningful, more manageable, and more clearly distinct from each other than those currently on the page. So far I have 'causes', 'conditions', 'symptoms', and 'remedies', as well as a list of 'character types' which overlap with the other categories and, as mentioned, could plausibly be its own sub-index.
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 17 Septimus Heap, Wed, 16th Jan '13 5:09:17 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I am inclined to agree with the reorganization.

 18 Noaqiyeum, Wed, 16th Jan '13 4:57:59 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Here's as far as I've gotten with the reorganisation so far:


Characters

Sane Characters Craziness by Career Crazy-Eccentric Crazy-Dysfunctional


Madness Tropes

Causes - Tropes about the origins and instigations of mental disorder. Conditions - I'm concerned that Conditions and Symptoms could be easy to confuse. My intent is for Conditions to be based on a cognitive or existential understanding of the disorder, and Symptoms to describe the behavioural consequences. What the character experiences versus what everyone else observes, so to speak. Symptoms - Ways to show the audience that a character is not of sound mind. Remedies & Resolutions

Left Over

edited 23rd Jan '13 10:50:22 AM by Noaqiyeum

I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 19 Noaqiyeum, Mon, 21st Jan '13 3:39:36 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
...bump?

O crap I scared away Septimus
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 20 Septimus Heap, Tue, 22nd Jan '13 2:12:35 AM from Madrid, Spain Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
You want to soft-split this index, right?

 21 Noaqiyeum, Tue, 22nd Jan '13 8:44:55 AM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Yes.
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 22 Earnest, Tue, 22nd Jan '13 10:34:28 AM from Monterrey, Mexico Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Happy puppy
I like the proposes soft split.[tup]

World's Toughest Milkman
Soft split is fine by me. Not sure exactly about the leftovers, but I don't think we need to be too strict. Worst case, we can simply have an other section. But "Settings" isn't a bad suggestion for some of them.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 24 Noaqiyeum, Tue, 29th Jan '13 1:04:45 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Okay, that sounds reasonable.

Anyone else?
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
 25 Noaqiyeum, Sat, 2nd Feb '13 1:52:50 PM from the Shadowlands Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
Ooooooookay, then...

What do I do to soft-split the index, exactly?
I don't deserve any credit for turning the other cheek as my tongue is always in it. ― Flannery O'Connor
Total posts: 30
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