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Merge and Rename (Alt Titles Crowner 2013-01-15): I Will Definitely Protect You get usage counts

Crowner, anyone?

 52 Septimus Heap, Fri, 7th Dec '12 8:48:22 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Which options?

 54 Septimus Heap, Fri, 7th Dec '12 11:28:56 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
These are good options.

 55 Noaqiyeum, Thu, 20th Dec '12 2:37:10 AM from across the gulf of space Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
the it-thingy
grmble grmble since no one else is apparently going to do it
tiinker, Tailor, hunter!!!, wwhaler
d0ct0r, L4WY3R, MUTANT, C)(I-EF
STRONGman, wEAKMAN, JoKeRmAn, Th8ef
Should we call this one? Looks like our goal is to rename the trope and redefine it to focus on the romantic connotations of declaration of protection.

If so, I suggest:

Declaration Of Protection Kindles Affection

edited 3rd Jan '13 9:31:37 AM by KingZeal

 57 Septimus Heap, Thu, 3rd Jan '13 9:40:49 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
10 or 11 votes are little.

It has literally been up for a month, and we have two non-exclusive options with a hefty, nigh-unanimous, lead. If that's not enough to call it, then what else do you suggest?

Also, for a description rewrite:

Seen often in Manga, Anime, and other Japanese media, something similar to "I will definitely protect you" is spoken by a male character to a female—the opposite being very rare. To western audiences or people unfamiliar with the phenomenon, it may seem like an inconsequentially macho boast. But in Japan, this is considered powerful language. It means something like, "I will always be there for you." (A very serious commitment that comes with strong romantic connotations.) In an actual romantic context, it's a very intimate promise to always be there for your partner; serious enough to be the equivalent of a marriage proposal depending on the scene.

You'll probably see it most often in Bishoujo series, Dating Sims, or Unwanted Harem comedies. The boy and the girl don't exactly have the same feelings towards each other. He thinks it's a friendly relationship. She is secretly in love with him. Our oblivious hero boasts, "I will definitely protect you!" Our confused heroine thinks he is confessing his life-long devotion to her. She will question, "Why would he say something like that to me?" or tell him "Don't say things that can be misunderstood!" Hilarity Ensues. It's also used more straight in series where a male lead wants to sound like both a Badass and a Knight in Shining Armor, with aims to invoke a Relationship Upgrade.

Because the meaning is very much based on context, it actually makes sense to translate it literally and leave it there. Giving it the correct contextual translation would completely miss the point of the original misunderstanding.

"Zettai ni mamoru" is not to be confused with Zenyatta Mondatta, which is something quite different.

edited 7th Jan '13 1:13:34 PM by KingZeal

[up] Seconded. If there were more 'against' votes I'd recommend bumbing and leaving it alone for another week or so but these are 1 vote short of unanimaus.

About the new write up; I like it. It focuses less on the phrase and more on the ( possibly romantic) meaning of it.
Bump. Any other thoughts?

This is seriously just one step away from being a solved thread.

edited 7th Jan '13 12:58:13 PM by KingZeal

 61 Septimus Heap, Mon, 7th Jan '13 12:59:00 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
And another crowner and 97 wicks...

So what? The renaming can't bloody well get done until this does. And I will personally fix those wicks if I have to.

This seems pretty simple. Either there's romantic context or there isn't.

That's not always too simple. Especially when the people most familiar with a work are rabid shippers or whatever. Or maybe when a work puts characters in a relationship that resembles something that leads to romance, but never established them as an item.

Of the top of my head, there's the second-to-last episode of Ultraman Dyna, where Asuka tells Ryoh "only you do I wish to protect"note  The show never actually establishes those two as a couple, since in the following episode, Asuka disappears after falling into a space vortex... thing and while their relationship throughout the series does resemble Belligerent Sexual Tension, I'm not really sure if it is. Their rivalry as fighter pilots definitely factors into the way they act, for one thing, and I don't think the show really established attraction between those two. (not 100% sure since I have no access to a subtitled version of the show to check, and I'm pretty sure I haven't seen all the episodes)

edited 9th Jan '13 10:29:07 AM by ThatHuman

If I'm not familiar with the work, and it looks ambiguous, I'll cut it or put it on the discussion page.

If I'm familiar with the work and the situation is ambiguous, I'll state that the situation is either ambiguous or an example of a Downplayed Trope.

Still simple.

Thing is, this doesn't seem to be a YMMV thing (at least nobody suggested it), so an "it counts if you want it to" doesn't fit with what the plan here is. Also, you're kind of underestimating how someone -coughshipperscough- will see it romantically, and some works have more shipper-heavy fandoms than others.

This tends to come up a lot in the Puella Magi Madoka Magica thread. There's a significant portion of fans that view Homura's feelings towards Madoka as something more than platonic, even though the show itself treated it as nonsexual.

Basically what I'm trying to say is, even when the work never gets around to establish if something is sexual or romantic, you will have people insisting it is, some works more than others.

edited 9th Jan '13 11:02:01 AM by ThatHuman

 66 Fighteer, Wed, 9th Jan '13 11:55:51 AM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
To me, this trope appears redundant. More specifically, there is no need for a culturally specific variant if we can prove that there is a general trope being employed.

The idea of defending someone you have a crush on in lieu of declaring said crush is practically Older Than Dirt. It certainly goes at least as far back as romantic chivalry, when a knight or would-be knight would swear to protect a lady, and by doing so stake a claim for her romantic attention.

It's a direct inversion of Bodyguard Crush: in that one, the guarding comes first and the love comes after. In this case, the guarding is a way to avoid having to spit it out; in fact, in some times and cultures, it was practically an Enforced Trope.

Therefore I see no fundamental distinction between this and I Will Protect Her. Calling it Japanese-specific is a blatant case of cultural myopia.

... I just looked at the two trope articles and they both cite the same Japanese phrase. If that isn't evidence that they're the same thing, I don't know what is.

This is one that I'm willing to declare by mod fiat if people insist on keeping it as is.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:01:18 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 67 Septimus Heap, Wed, 9th Jan '13 12:01:54 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
So in other words, we have a page that is arbirarily split between Japanese and non-Japanese?

I still don't see you guys' objection. Belligerent Sexual Tension, Unresolved Sexual Tension, and other shipping-focused tropes are not YMMV and can be misinterpreted by fans too. So can a lot of other tropes here. And those tropes are less cut-and-dry than this one.

In my write-up above, I specifically say that this trope MUST include an in-universe verification by another character blushing, becoming enamored, or treating it as romantic subtext. I've counted at least 8 examples there, as well as other ones I've yet to add from a work or two I am personally familiar with. Under these conditions, the trope is not only objective, but enforced by our usual trope standards.

EDIT: Also, I've already stated the difference between this trope and I Will Protect Her, several times. (To reiterate, I Will Protect Her is just a hero's determination to protect a female character, whether or not they are a love interest. This trope is about the connection between a declaration to protect and romance. This trope is, thus, a Sub-Trope of the other.)

It is just frustrating that now, after the crowner is done and we're ready to move forward, everyone suddenly has a problem.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:11:13 PM by KingZeal

 69 Fighteer, Wed, 9th Jan '13 12:17:42 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
@King Zeal: It came up in the mod discussion thread. Just because the crowner has gone a certain way doesn't mean it's the correct action. I Will Protect Her for romantic reasons is not even a subtrope; it's The Same but More Specific.

If you guys dropped the Japanese-centric part and I didn't see that, I apologize, but the notion that this is a culturally-specific trope is nonsense. And regardless, the title needs to go.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:18:45 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
 70 lu 127, Wed, 9th Jan '13 12:19:02 PM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
A declaration of protection being romantic is not exclusive to Japan. It also does not seem to need to be split. I Will Protect Her is healthy enough.
 71 Septimus Heap, Wed, 9th Jan '13 12:21:12 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
I Will Protect Her has somewhat bad wicks and inbounds (Standard Dialogue Title Suckage?), so I'd advocate a merger if only as an excuse to search for a better title.

How? Is Oh Crap the same as a Despair Event Horizon or Heroic BSOD? One tends to lead directly to the other, but that does not mean they're the same.

Are Love Confession, Dying Declaration of Love and Anguished Declaration of Love the same? What about Red Eyes, Take Warning, Glowing Eyes of Doom and Hellish Pupils? They all serve the same purpose and can completely overlap. Are they all the same exact thing?

 73 Fighteer, Wed, 9th Jan '13 12:27:06 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
You're Chewbaccaing now, Zeal. Cut it out. We are talking about this trope, not those other tropes. Get your head in the right place.

The fact is that love/lust/affection is one of many reasons why a character might declare I Will Protect Her. These reasons do not need to be distinct as tropes. I Will Protect Her also seems to be languishing, which is good evidence that it needs a rename (and possibly a better description, as those subcategories seem a bit arbitrary).

So, the course of action here seems clear: merge the two tropes and find a better name.

Now, it might turn out that I Will Protect Her needs splitting into subtropes — the current organization of the page makes that a distinct possibility, but I think we'll find that most of those aren't subtropes; they are separate tropes that share the same narrative space. In other words, the outcome of the protection is separate from the motivation for it.

There's also some conceptual overlap with Protectorate. I need to dig into that a bit deeper. ... Okay, never mind. Protectorate is explicitly a Super Trope.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:29:29 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.
Please do not personally attack me. I'm doing my best to argue why this is a bad idea.

Your argument, frankly, does not make any sense in light of the fact that tropes can overlap and have completely different context and thus be a completely different trope, which I was attempting to demonstrate above, but is somehow "Chewbaccaing"?

This is NOT just about wanting to protect someone or protecting someone. It's not exclusive to Japan, no, but the culture of Japan assigns it a much stronger context than the west usually does. It's similar to This Is Unforgivable, in that it's so common in Japanese media that there are entire scenes built around it.

But that's all I'm going to say about it. If this is so serious that the mods have completely made up their minds, I won't waste my time anymore.

 75 Fighteer, Wed, 9th Jan '13 12:40:18 PM from the Time Vortex Relationship Status: Dancing with Captain Jack Harkness
"It's more significant in Japan" does not mean and has never meant that we make a separate trope. I'm not sure where you got that idea. The significance of tropes in various cultures can be denoted on the Analysis page if needed.

I'm more concerned that we identify the core concept here and figure out how to express it with a useful title.

I've been staying out of TRS because it's a lot busier than I have time for, but sometimes I butt in. I apologize if that seems abrupt.

edited 9th Jan '13 12:41:25 PM by Fighteer

Ironically, the pursuit of the definition of happiness does not appear to be a happiness-maximizing behavior.

Alternative Titles: I Will Protect Her
15th Jan '13 8:12:17 AM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
The previous crowner voted to merge I Will Definitely Protect You and I Will Protect Her, with a new, non-dialog title. Please propose and vote for new titles to represent the combined trope, which is about a person swearing to protect another person.
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