Avoiding Suetiful All Along

I'm writing a book that takes place during a Quasi Medival European setting. One of the protagonists is an impovershed seamstress. She's seen as quite plain due to the fact she isn't pale and is skinny. I can see the Values Dissonance in this that would make it somewhat moot, but let me point out that she's skinny to the point of almost being underweight. Other than that, she looks basically average, nothing special. She is eventually able to marry a wealthy man but it is more due to the fact they had a long standing friendship since childhood. Can you see any problems with this?

Looks fine to me. Is there anything in particular you're worried about?

I'd need more information about your character before I give any meaningful opinion. I don't see any Mary Sue traits in what you posted. Although, I would at least hope that you don't describe the character as looking "basically average" in the book itself. :)

However, you've only posted a physical description so far. The point of Suetiful All Along is that Mary Sues are not solely determined by appearance. That's just a single trait. A Suetiful character is a (failed) attempt at avoiding a Mary Sue by removing certain Common Sue Traits (such as appearance), but not removing the thing which fundamentally makes them a Sue.

Since the majority of your description concerns physical appearance, I assume that you're most concerned about that. Therefore, compare the following fake examples:

Mary Sue is an unattractive, plain-looking, and clumsy girl. Her wide eyes are vivid diamonds buried in the rough of her long eyelashes. She had no waist to speak of. She was a lonely nobody, unless you count her multiple admirers who constantly fawn over her and would totally die for her even though she paid them no attention. Despite her flaws, she is a peerless dancer and extremely athletic.

In this case, Mary Sue is clearly a Mary Sue. The author is trying to describe her assets as if they were flaws, and is failing. The description also contradicts itself. Clumsy, but a "peerless" dancer. Lonely unattractive nobody, but has multiple admirers. Appearances alone do not determine a Sue, but her skills and other things do.

Betty Sue had skin like sandpaper. She was born into an extremely poor family, and hadn't eaten in many days, a fact plainly obvious by the bones which poked out from beneath her skin. Although only in her 30s, she was often mistaken for an old lady.

Here, the author is verging on Anti-Sue in their physical description. However, Betty Sue might still be a close relative of Mary Sue, if you'll pardon the pun. Betty Sue could still have other Sue traits such as profound wisdom or a complete lack of failure. She might also have dozens of inexplicable admirers. She might be the last member of a forgotten race which makes her secretly 900 years old. There are a number of other traits she could have which would still make her a Mary Sue. If the flaws are taken too far, she may turn into a Sympathetic Sue. This description isn't adequate enough to make a real decision.

Still, you seem to be too conscious of it in order to fall into this problem. If you're concerned, I'd recommend going to one of the various Mary Sue Litmus Test websites, answering them (making sure to be honest) and then checking the result. You shouldn't use it as a final judgement, but it's a good start. If you have a character which is otherwise intriguing, but scores somewhat high on a test, don't feel obligated to rework the character based on the test alone. Even Mary Sues can be interesting characters. Tropes Are Not Bad.

edited 9th Sep '12 3:43:14 PM by Q

A note on MS Litmus tests- if you're going to try seriously using them as a tool for writing, at the very least, do more than one test so you have extra opinions.

Also seconding what others have said- she looks fine, but to pass definite judgement, we'd have to know more.

edited 9th Sep '12 7:44:41 AM by CrystalGlacia

Or just don't use them at all; most are terrible.

Avoiding suetiful all along is easy.

Stay ugly.

It also helps if the character has some Fatal Flaw 's and we are frequently reminded of them and he shouldn't completly overcome them the very second they emerge as in

[The Flaw is "Trust Issues"]

"Oh I am sorry I mistrusted you, from now on i never ever judge a book by it's cover",

i prefer that situation to go like this: "Well I may have been wrong about that but i will keep an eye on him, he might be covering something up..."

Nothings worse then a Pollyanna that constantly is right about her perception of reallity, after all (to quote Goethe) "Man errs as long as he doth strive."

edited 9th Sep '12 1:05:48 PM by Kiefen

You could try this test: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/19516509/test/test.html

I tried that test on the doctor (Doctor Who). and acording to it he is a Mary Sue

edited 9th Sep '12 9:45:50 PM by FallenLegend

The Doctor may well be a Mary Sue (Marty Stu, Canon Sue, whatever). He's attractive, incredibly powerful, intelligent, the last of his kind, with a very unique name (although it's never been mentioned). He's incredibly old but looks incredibly young. He's also almost always victorious. He wears impossibly cool clothes. (Well, if you think that bow-ties and fezzes are cool.) He sparkles and glows when he regenerates. He doesn't even need to make threats. All he needs to say is "Hello. I'm The Doctor.", and his enemies cower. All of those are Common Mary Sue Traits.

That doesn't make him less entertaining. Tropes Are Not Bad! No, not even these. When he says he's going to rescue everybody, restore everything, and make a happy ending, there's no doubt that he'll do it without missing a single step. The entertainment comes with the unexpected methods he uses to accomplish all of those things. Sometimes it comes in the form of a Batman Gambit that even he couldn't have possibly expected to work. It leaves the viewer thinking, maybe for an instant, that despite all his other successes, there's no way he's going to pull it off this time. Yet, The Doctor still does.

Going to just edit here rather than posting again. You don't have to apologize for disagreeing with me. However, if you're going to bother stating your disagreement, it may help to have more context, rather than simply declaring it and linking to a two-page thread. If you're stating that the term Mary Sue is poorly-defined and almost nearly devoid of meaning, then we are actually in agreement on that note. However, by the definition of Mary Sue as given on that single test, The Doctor might be considered a Mary Sue. My point is that failing a simple character test does not doom an entire story; a point that the OP may wish to take into consideration when writing their own.

Alternatively, If you're stating that Doctor Who is not interesting or well-written solely due to the character of The Doctor, then we're in disagreement.

edited 10th Sep '12 10:44:19 PM by Q

Sorry but I will have I disagree, I think you should read this https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13472474210A43760100&page=1

edited 10th Sep '12 10:09:28 PM by FallenLegend

I don't think you have to have ugly characters to avoid Mary Suedom.

Whatever the term means, anyway.