A scenario I want to try: Mind reader vs Pre-cognitive.

An idea I've had for a while, and something I might want to try in the future.

Basically a character who can read minds faces off with a character who can see into the future.

Neither is particularly strong with their power(the mind reader can only reader immediate thoughts, while the pre-cog can only see a few seconds at most) except for specific circumstances. However, both use their powers to supplement Martial arts skills, learning their enemies moves and adapting.

So basically they would face off with the Mind reader reading the pre-cogs mind and changing attack patterns(like seeing through a bluff to punch him/her in the gut, and protecting his/her face instead), and the pre-cog would see a future where his/her bluff fails and try something else.

Wash, rinse, repeat. A seeming stalemate since both will know what the other is doing, and change tactics, and neither knows why, at least at first. At some points, they just be standing there, unable to attack because they keep reading minds and seeing different futures and being unsure what to do since both are too used to relying on their powers.

If I ever get around to trying it, I'd like to hear who you guys thing would win, and why?

edited 25th Aug '12 9:01:08 AM by HandsomeRob

It sounds like the pre-cog would have the upper hand. The mind reader has to react to what the pre-cog's already predicted so they're always going to be acting reactively (assuming both only rely on their powers). Not to mention, unless there's some sort of limit, the pre-cog is just going to see what the mind reader's doing in reaction to the new information (which the pre-cog already has).

Both would probably Double KO each other.

The mind reader would read the pre-cog reacting to the mind reader reading so the pre-cog reacts and the mind reader reads the reaction and pre-cogs sees it and reacts so on and on and on.

Yeah. I was thinking Double Knock Out as well.

That makes sense.

If possible, I'd like to hear reasons why either could win.

edited 25th Aug '12 9:52:56 AM by HandsomeRob

I'm not entirely sure who would win, but what you've essentially done is set up a split-second long Stable Time Loop - the precog sees a future where the mind reader knows that future ahead of time.

Actually, it might impossible for them to fight, because they both know they're not going to.

They both get a headache and pass out.

Amusingly enough. This happens in twilight.

Alice is a Precog, Edward's a Mind Reader.

They play chess, which consists of them sitting still for a few minutes then having Alice knock over her king.

Hmm.

Fuck Twilight.

Not just for existing, but for actually managing to make sense at least once.

Getting serious again, so far it seems everyone is leaning towards stalemate.

One person has said the pre-cog could win.

Anyway for the mind reader to come out on top?

Precog knows what you plan on doing.

You read their mind to know what they think you'll do and decide to do something else.

They predict what you plan on doing again.

You know they know that and change again.

So it keeps going until someone makes a mistake.

I don't think that the mind reader can come out on top. I that the precog would have the edge, (assuming that there is any amount of processing time involved in both talents (even if it's nanoseconds). The reason I believe this is something called the OODA Loop.

Basically, an OODA loop is a series of actions taken in virtually any tactical situation by all participants, either consciously or unconsciously. It works thus:

O: Observe: Look at the situation.

O: Orient: Determine your options.

D: Decide: Pick one to execute.

A: Act: Do it.

O: Observe: Observe the results.

O: Orient: Determine the new options.

D: Decide: Pick one.

A: Act: Do it.

O: Observe: et cetera.

The precog's loop is infinitesimally shorter (faster to run through) that the mind reader's, because he doesn't need to extrapolate "what will happen if he does this?" in between the Orient and Decide steps. He knows what the result will be. He can do what's called "getting inside" the mind reader's loop. He can make his decision faster, and therefor will be able to act sooner.

edited 25th Aug '12 9:03:35 PM by Madrugada

There really is no way to choose a winner in this fight. Well, not if it's a clean fight anyways. The Pre-Cog has already seen the fight come to a stalemate. He can't have that, so he finds a way to stop his own thoughts from being read ala Magneto and his helmet or with a tune stuck in his head or he finds a way to drug the Mind Reader which only confuses his own powers.

In one book I read, Trolls could read minds.

The only way to fight them was to use a warrior who had no idea what they hell the were planning on doing next.

A Berserker..

You have just described the basic mechanism of blitzkrieg, and why it's applicable here. However given the timescales at which the human brain operates, I'm not sure how much of an advantage it provides.

This sort of thing becomes much more relevant when attempting to deal with multiple sources of data and possibilities, but there's only one that really matters here, and that's pulling the precog's idea of what the future is, and you're down to the .2 second human reaction time (or whatever the number is , I've heard others) to fend off something that could well take that long to reach you anyways.

It would depend greatly on how it was played, who was offensive and who was defensive. The best the reader might be able to manage is a stalemate by playing defense (or more realistically, waiting for a screwup to win by), but manage it they can.

Question! Does the precog know what the mind reader's power is already? Needless to question the mind reader's knowledge.

Either way I think the mind reader has the advantage strategically, which I might explain soon. But I'd like to ask the above question first.

edited 26th Aug '12 1:43:02 AM by PsychoFreaX

Night: That's why I said "(assuming that there is any amount of processing time involved in both talents (even if it's nanoseconds))".

Okay here's how I think it would go. Works either way, but better if the precog doesn't already know the mind reader's power.

Anyway, the way to defeat a precog is attack them in a way they can't avoid even if they could see it coming. Even if the mind reader has no way of doing so on the spot, remember that the precog in this case can only see a few seconds ahead. So the key is to plan a lot longer ahead to trap them.

The mind reader can throw the first few attacks that will be inevitably be avoided. The fight will seem to be a stalemate, as others above me has mentioned, while they rally attacks. However, the true intention of the mind reader isn't to hit the precog with his attacks but count on them to dodge it in a certain way and Batman Gambit them into a corner(or something) for an unavoidable attack.

This is why I think the mind reader has advantage. Besides, the mind reader in this case would have both his power and the precog's. The precog can only read the mind reader's future movements, not their thoughts. Also, it should only make sense the mind reader would have grown in wisdom from their history of learning about other people's thoughts.

edited 26th Aug '12 7:19:45 AM by PsychoFreaX

That's interesting. I like it.

Note that at least at first, neither would know the other's power, so it would be a Mutual Disadvantage in the beginning, since neither would know they can't read each-other.

However, if given time to prepare, the mind reader would be able to probably pull the stunt you are describing, and the pre-cog could look farther into the future perhaps before the battle started, so a second encounter would go to either

If we assume that Reader and Seer are mid-level espers, then their abilities will have logical limitations. We have to find out how their abilities function.

I have a thing for touch-based magics, so my espers have to touch subjects in order to read them. Particularly skilled espers can extend their "reach" via their auras.

Following this model, Reader and Seer might have to be within a certain range (say nine feet) for their abilities to work. If Reader gets close and discovers Seer's ability, he might have a chance to get out of range and that could give him an advantage. But the next question is how long it takes Seer to realize what Reader knows. Will he immediately know what Reader is going to do or would it take him a few seconds?

It takes no time at all for the seer to know what the reader's going to do, assuming we're talking about a Next-esque power.

Are both martial artists of equivalent skill and physical strength? I think they're powers would nullify the supernatural advantages enough that the deciding factor might actually just be their martial arts.

Alternatively, either one could make a deliberate minor or medium mistake to create an opening when the other capitalizes on it. This might be easier for the Mind Reader to pull off, but you could write it either way.

For instance, if the precog can see a second ahead, the mind reader moves into danger and allows the precog to strike. By the time the precog sees his crushing retaliation, he's already off balance and in a position where he can't counter.

Alternatively, the precog could do something similar, as long as he is not projecting the thought that that is what he is planning. So the mind reader will know that the precog will move into this position, where he will take a blow, but the precog's projection of the retaliation would occur after the mind reader has already delivered the more minor blow and is incapable of defending from the precog's coup de grace.

Does this make any sense?

EDIT: THIS TROPE HAS A NAME! The Deliberate Injury Gambit.

edited 27th Aug '12 12:08:29 PM by Cthulboohoo

Well I want the fight to be as interesting as possbile by making it as difficult as possible for both sides, so yeah, near equal skill (like so much that if one is better, the difference is too small to measure).

If I ever do get to it, I want the audience to genuinely wonder who will win.

Oh yeah and with my idea you can have it so the mind reader's victory line is something like "One who plans only a few seconds ahead is still a fool." Or something like that.

Won't work so well if the attack the other decides to land ends up being like a combo.

edited 30th Aug '12 7:13:11 PM by PsychoFreaX

You could always Take a Third Option and do like Dune. The telepath and seer negate each others powers so they have to fight normally. Probably not as fun though.

Any elaboration for that to make sense?

Curiosity.

Also now in hindsight I thought of another factor. In some fiction, telepathy can just be auditory. But others can extend to any other sense in the target's short term or sensory memory.

Say if the mind reader can only hear thoughts and you want the precog to win, he could use that to his advantage.

edited 1st Oct '12 11:12:15 AM by PsychoFreaX

Two Precogs could sort of cancel each other out.

Or just remain locked in place as each one tried to out-predict the other.