Villain ideas

OK, I've been having an idea for a villain, or actually really two villains, though they share a number of similarities. Thought I'd post them to see which one seems more interesting, as well as to see whether they could work. Note that I'm not close to even starting to write them, this is just brainstorming.

1. An American man who grew up in the Deep South, and in general does not have a pleasant experience. As he grows up he sees the worst of conservative beliefs being applied, like on the social side such as the banning of teaching of evolution, demonization of gays (to the point where he knows one who committed suicide), atheists and immigrants, as well as the economic side where people around him express hatred towards poor people for being lazy, and when his mother dies of an illness due to having no health insurance, he hears people mock his family for not working hard enough to earn money and save her life. This turns out to be the final straw for him, and from here on he is deeply embittered, concluding that the conservative ideology he has experienced is irredeemably evil and must be destroyed.

This guy would probably be a Villain Protagonist set in a Divided States of America situation taking place in the near future, where he takes advantage of the chaos to raise a group of followers to wipe out an ideology he despises via brute force. Though the details I have not thought of yet.

2. An American man who begins to feel deep contempt towards society around him, viewing it to be shallow and corrupt, and culminates in a deep hatred of the US government, Wall Street, capitalism, or even America in general. He begins hating the system so much that he cannot tolerate their existences any longer, and plots to destroy them utterly.

The setting would probably be in the modern day, more or less, and he'd be the head of an underground terrorist group, writing things like "America is a cancer to humanity" and "the American empire will continue to slaughter people unless it is brought to its knees and decapitated. And that decapitation is happening soon." Said decapitation, as you would expect, involves destroying the US government (the president, his entire line of succession, Congress and Senate), Wall Street, and ultimately the entire top 1%, though the only way it would seem that this would happen is via nuclear bombs. Depending on how far his hatred extends, he may even nuke a large number of American cities, ala Jericho.

So, yeah, I'm aware that these ideas so far can head into dangerous straw territory extremely easy, which is why I'd like to discuss them first. Any comments or suggestions?

edited 10th Aug '12 2:16:50 PM by Exploder

Anyone? If there're no responses, then I might take it as a sign that such characters would be too controversial or something.

Mind if I weigh in?

I feel like — even though there's potential with both characters — I would personally enjoy seeing you go with Villain #1. The Villain Protagonist idea is intriguing in itself, but I think it'd be really exciting to see this guy raise his "army" of sorts. Even if he's ostensibly a bad guy resorting to extreme measures, I'd wager that he has the skills and charisma necessary to win people over to his cause. That could do wonders for your story, if you decide to focus on it.

Now, I'll admit that I'm not much in the way of politics, so I won't judge how controversial they are or if they're just being used as strawmen. So the best advice I can give is this: do some research, plan your story well, and inject a bit of Gray-and-Grey Morality. Once you get your story together — and find some beta readers, I suppose — you'll be able to figure out what you need to do from there.

Hope that helps you out. Good luck.

Go with #1. I'd like to see him as an Affably Evil Well-Intentioned Extremist.

#2 is basically Tyler Durden + Bane, and that type of character is beyond played-out.

edited 16th Aug '12 4:13:23 PM by Wheezy

Villain #1 has far more potential to go into a political minefield (in either direction), but I think he nonetheless sounds much more interesting then villain #2, who as Wheezy says is a thoroughly overused archetype.

edited 16th Aug '12 4:15:32 PM by nrjxll

Alright, thanks for the feedback so far.

Though to be honest villain #2 was only partially based on Bane, the other primary inspiration for him, if you can believe it, came from me reading angry rants by progressive and socialist writers.

I wouldn't do much for #1. He seems too much like a Straw Man, unless his enemies are liberals that he views are not taking enough action about stopping conservative politics. He seems a little bit interesting, though. Are you aiming for a more left-wing or right-wing author tract? Or are you trying not to do an author tract? (I'm sorry if I offended you.)

Alright, I've decided to bring this one back for a while. And no, no offense taken.

In the case of #1 again, I'm thinking that the story could be a commentary about the Eagleland trope in general. Here the main character despises Eagleland type 2 with every fiber of his being, and his ultimate goal is to radically transform America in such a way so that Type 2 is permanently eradicated.

In some ways he could actually be a bit like Michael Corleone - one that starts off idealistic and wanting to defeat what he sees as brutal enemies, only to resort to heinous methods himself far down the line.

Only thing would be the setting - for his motivation to make sense, America would have to be run by a non-funny version of Stephen Colbert or something, with ultranationalism, xenophobia, and hatred of the poor being extremely prevalent and anyone politically opposed to this being suppressed in undemocratic ways like threats and intimidation. Then when the government decides to invade, say, Iran, everything reaches critical mass and an internal conflict ends up breaking out as well. In such a case, would it be appropriate for at least one in-story comparison to Nazi Germany?

edited 12th Oct '12 2:18:36 AM by Exploder

I don't think that kind of situation would really be needed at all, especially given that this character is meant to be a villain.

Yep. I think the problem isn't the villain's motivation so much as his followers motivation. There are already plenty of people who'd gladly press a button labelled 'kill all republicans', it's just that they lack the credibility and charisma (and smarts and dedication) to really have any influence outside of niche forums. History shows us that madmen generally only gain power when people are desperate (hereditary matters aside), so you'd have to show that the situation was desperate enough for relatively normal people to consider following a guy who clearly isn't firing on all cylinders but presents what looks like a workable if drastic solution to the problem.

I think the final straw would be something that make the citizens feel genuinely under fire from their government - either something along the lines of martial law, or a major human rights scandal that demonstrates that any safeguards that might once have existed are well and truly fucked. Other than that though there's a lot that could still be business as normal.

In general though your villains need a LOT more development before I can give any meaningful criticism. One thing I would say is that 'bad childhood experience with group x, now hates group x', while a fine component in a villain's motivation should not be the founding cornerstone of their character. It's the bad kind of cliché.

edited 12th Oct '12 7:29:55 AM by Kesteven

I like #1 but I'm just wondering if he'll ever experience a Not So Different moment at all? Because it seems that his character is seems rather bigoted and his views are really black and white. Although if he's 100% villainous I think it would be fine but as Villain Protagonist I don't really feel any sympathy for him due to how he feels that those who hurt him = everyone who doesn't think like him hurt him and they should believe or think like him.

Or course he doesn't need to be sympathetic but I guess without it he comes across as a jerk with no regards for any other ideals or beliefs other than his own, once again due to how he was treated. Any who just my two cents.

edited 12th Oct '12 7:35:43 AM by ElecRei