Complaining: Internet Backdraft

"Definition of bad examples TBD" however sends an "imminent blind voting/crowner failure imminent" alarm bell ringing to me.

If you can think of a better way to put it, feel free. I don't think it should even be on the crowner, but there were people speaking out for the option, so I felt it would be dishonest to omit it. Frankly, having browsed through the examples, looking for in-universe, I seriously doubt any reasonable definition can be found, but this is supposed to be some sort of consensual democracy, so....

It's only going to be a problem if enough people vote for it, and I have faith that we have enough tropers with better sense. :)

edited 29th Aug '12 1:52:30 PM by Xtifr

I am tempted to just delete it for being absolutely useless. For the record, I do not add options which are obviously bad during crowner-making.

Let's just hope nobody votes it up.

And you should if you can.

If the exact implications of what the option would entail are completely unknown to anyone who would be voting, it should never be made an option for anyone to consider.

edited 29th Aug '12 3:33:16 PM by SeanMurrayI

People add "Clean up" to crowners all the time when the definition (as frequently pointed out in the discussion) doesn't make it clear what the criteria for clean-up would be. The only thing I did that's even remotely unusual here is allude to that fact in the crowner.

eta: Furthermore, the discussion has been about 10:1 against keeping not-in-universe examples. Even Fast Eddie dropped by to say that those examples should be removed. Unless the drive-by voters decide that this is the place to make their stand against Eddie, which seems unlikely, I think there's little to worry about.

eta x2: the option is already at 0:4, running dead last behind every other option, including doing nothing, and the crowner hasn't even been hooked yet. I'm not worried.

edited 29th Aug '12 5:11:12 PM by Xtifr

Negative?..really. i didn't see any OVERT negativity in the examples. Before now people only had complaints about hyperbole. If the only complaint is Hyperbole then the article seems to be fine IMO. I know things changed the last 2 years from when i was lurking. But excluding real life examples is kinda short sighted. You know what would end all of this? if that Real Life examples was axed all together and stop making exceptions.

The whole thing is basically a long list of "how to start a flame war", and you don't see the negativity? Not to mention all the criticisms of fans and creators who don't react to trolling very well (essentially). I read through most of it, hunting in-universe examples, and I saw little that wasn't negativity.

Sure, it may not be flat-out insults, but you don't have to directly insult people to be negative.

There are tropes where real-life examples can help elucidate the trope. This is not one. (If it were, there would be more in-universe examples.) This is simply a huge pile of taunting and snickering and smug superiority. It's in extremely bad taste, and completely off-mission.

The purpose of the wiki is to celebrate fiction and document tropes. Not to make fun of thin-skinned fans or to document statements that may annoy.

The problem here is that this page is basically SoYouWantTo.Start A Flame War. I don't see the point of this hyperbole.

edited 30th Aug '12 12:12:13 AM by lu127

Crowner velcroed to thread.

Smug superiority? I don't see that at all. Now i can see how this seems more like a "How to" regarding starting a Flame War. But how else would you describe your example...serious question? If there's another way just reword the entries.

How To Start A Flame War might a Just for Fun page, but only as that.

If you want to have a web page listing ways to start flamewars on various other forums, I recommend that you set up your own site. I'll bet that howtostartaflamewar.com is available. It has nothing to do with TV Tropes, nothing to do with what we do here, and doesn't belong here. I'm sure nobody will mind if you grab a copy for your own purposes. Eddie himself very much wants this gone, and I suspect the only reason he hasn't taken matters into his own hands is that the rest of us are clearly in agreement with him.

Still, you can be proud that you registered the lone vote of support to the single most unpopular item on the crowner. You are the noble rebel. I guess.

eta: How would I word an example? I wouldn't. Either that or I would own my sense of smug superiority, and trash those lame suckers. But I wouldn't do the latter here.

edited 30th Aug '12 10:59:50 PM by Xtifr

At least speaking personally, I have no objection to tearing Fan Dumb a new one. But it's not something I would ever do or consider doing here, on TV Tropes. Apart from every other potential problem, it's just not what the site should do.

Just spotted another example for the in-universe YKTTW; will add it in the morning.

edited 31st Aug '12 1:26:43 AM by nrjxll

I just don't see how people are being smug for pointing out what can cause Flame Wars. I understand people see it as off mission, but frankly alot of things are off mission cause they're not directly related to TV/Film Tropes specifically. But tropes bleed into real life and vise versa i guess.

If this is the case, I, for one, would like to ask that Eddie go ahead and fiat the thing to death - I'm really sick of "but it's funnnnnnn" arguments on here.

Then understand that this page ain't going to be kept the way you like it. The End.

edited 31st Aug '12 10:13:07 PM by SeanMurrayI

Like i said i also understand that alot of other things are "off mission" on here as well but they still exist.

You're only telling us that there are other pages on the wiki that need fixing, in addition to this page which we're already fixing.

You've not made an actual argument as to why you think we should stop trying to fix a particular page that even you are saying is "off mission" (which is bad).

edited 2nd Sep '12 9:44:42 PM by SeanMurrayI

This is worse than just "off-mission". It's actively against our mission. We're supposed to be celebrating fiction. Finding ways to annoy fans and make fun of them is no part of that.

Ok 2 things, i'm not against fixing the page (or the other pages for that matter). I just disagree about how to do it. Secondly From most of what i have read on the article i never got the impression people was making fun of any particular fandom (besides the flame war itself). I'm all for fixing it i just don't necessarily believe a wholesale Example Sectomy is the answer. That's all, nothing more, nothing less.

I don't know what to tell you, man. If the only thing you tell me is that you "disagree about how to do it", then I can't tell you much in return when you're not even laying out for the rest of us your alternate plan for fixing the page.

If you are going to say an Example Sectomy isn't the correct answer, then you must also tell us what is, otherwise you haven't told us anything that could redirect our effort to repair the page.

edited 3rd Sep '12 2:15:09 PM by SeanMurrayI

Overall I agree that the course this seems to be taking is the best. While it is not inherently the case that a page of this nature will turn into bashing, smug superiority, or an actual Flame War (and I would contend that most of the examples are not of that nature, merely hyperbole, Just for Fun, or making fun of the idea of a Flame War itself), the potential for it to become such a thing is too great to risk. And while I think we can all agree that a Flame War is a ridiculous thing, should be prevented at all costs, and should always be exposed as the Epic Fail that it is, that isn't something that needs to be documented on TV Tropes.

I would, however, make one small comment as a Devil's Advocate: wouldn't it be useful to have a list of things that can cause a Flame War, so that those who don't want to cause one can...you know, avoid doing so?

Also: I think we should remind ourselves that these discussions are meant to be ones where reasonable people discuss options calmly and rationally, rather than rejecting each other or putting each other down due to perceived failures in logic, assumed calls for Just for Fun, or simply having a different view than someone else. Putting others down isn't just counterproductive, it suggests why so many seem unhappy with the way TV Tropes is being run these days. I don't think TV Tropes has become a group of uber-fascist Orwellian Editors...but it's best not to say or do things that might give that impression. Just saying.

edited 3rd Sep '12 8:30:35 PM by Ingonyama

I assure you, there is huge amounts of bashing and calls of Fan Dumb in the examples we have already. It was seriously painful to dig through all that bile searching for in-universe examples. Before I did that, I could have been on the fence. Now I am absolutely not.

And no, we certainly don't need an explanation of all the ways you can make fans upset. It's totally off-topic, and most of it is common sense. Don't criticize the main characters, or tell fans of show X that similar show Y is better, is not something we need a detailed listing of.

I'm sure we've all noticed that two of the top TRS threads right now concern "Things to say that anger fans" tropes. One inexplicably limited to internet fans (almost certainly because the people who wrote it use the Internet a lot). The other randomly named after a misspelling of a Legend Of Zelda character.

edited 4th Sep '12 3:02:48 AM by Routerie

Whilst I'll admit to getting some perverse amusement out of reading those pages, the big problem is that most of the examples fall under three categories we don't really want: 1) complaining about being attacked on the Internet for Fandom Heresy, 2) entries that seem to be giving guidance to wannabe trolls, 3) (the smallest) trying to pre-empt things by correcting misconceptions that particularly wind up fans. The last is well-meaning but off-mission here.

Trying to warn newbies about what topics to avoid is futile, not only is it the exact same advice a troll needs, but potentially any opinion can cause flaming. It's just that some cause it more quickly in the thread, or get more angry replies, or have more fodder to keep the argument going both ways (the last is not a bad thing, really). The moderation of the forum and the culture kept up by the posters is what matters, not the topic.

(Ultimately, the cause of the worse backdraft is not fans holding strong opinions, but thinking theirs are the only ones held by "real" fans. I rather like how on 4chan, any opinion, now matter how widely held, is going to be angrily attacked. Even if it's only trolling, it helps break the illusion of consensus.)

I'm sure I've seen in-universe examples in webcomics, but none come to mind.