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Needs Help: Matriarchy In Name Only get usage counts

 26 ccoa, Thu, 20th Sep '12 8:50:01 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Sure, that works.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 27 Madrugada, Thu, 20th Sep '12 11:07:18 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I don't agree. That sounds like a matriarchy that oppresses or denigrates women itself. If we want to make it clear that it's "Matriarchy is BAD, 'k?", Misguided Matriarchy might work. Or we could go with the 'Straw' naming convention (a <Straw X> is an X which the writer includes to demonstrate how bad X is.) and make it a Straw Matriarchy.

edited 20th Sep '12 11:07:28 AM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 28 ccoa, Thu, 20th Sep '12 12:27:12 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Well, it does denigrate women, but I can see your point about confusing it for in-Universe denigration. Straw Matriarchy works, as well.

But this may be better in a topic for Matriarchy rather than this trope, if we need to do anything more to that one.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
@ Ccoa - Is this basically that women have title but men are still treated as the superior gender?

 30 Madrugada, Thu, 20th Sep '12 8:51:37 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Matriarchy In Name Only? Yes, that pretty much sums it up, although it may also be that the women are nominally in charge, but the men actually are when you look at how things really work.

edited 20th Sep '12 8:52:35 PM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
Is it okay to delete the Exalted example? It says that it's described as a mildly matriarchal society that's really a strictly gender-egalitarian society that happens to be led by an Empress. That sounds neither martiarchal or partiarchal in name or practice.

There's a saying that I believe would describe a patriarchy in name only in a family situation. A man would say, "When my wife and I married we agreed that I would be in charge of all the big decisions and she would be in charge of all the small decisions. After all these years there haven't been any big decisions yet."

edited 21st Sep '12 10:36:02 AM by lexicon

Ecce Homo Superior
[up]Yeah, that example sounds bad.
(it's David Bowie)
Sharknado Warning
The Star Trek example itself is weird. It claims word of god says they are matriarchal, but this is not the case in the show (All Praetors seen are men, and we've seen far more men in positions of power than women).

The Star Trek wiki contains no trace of this word of god claim so I can't even tell it is genuine.

Similarly, not sure World of Warcraft is an example. It's just an inversion of traditional gender duties (Females are the military, men are the spiritual ones). But the society's ruled by both men and women (As high priestess and Archdruid respectively). But Females aren't particularly in charge.

edited 21st Sep '12 10:47:17 AM by CobraPrime

 34 Madrugada, Fri, 21st Sep '12 10:53:30 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
lexicon: That saying works for both Matriarchy and Patriarchy In Name Only, depending on which sex is supposed to be making the "big decisions". In a Matriarchy In Name Only, the women make all the big decisions and the men can make the small ones, but there aren't ever any big ones. And going by your description, the Exalted example is bad.

Cobra: If an example claims Word of God as its reason for being listed, but there's no verification of that Word of God to be found, I'd say cut it and move it to the discussion page with a note that a source for the Word of God claim needs to be produced before it's re-added to the main page. And the WOW should also be cut.

edited 21st Sep '12 10:57:09 AM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 35 Another Duck, Fri, 21st Sep '12 11:30:06 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I wonder how long it will be until there are no examples left?
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 36 Madrugada, Fri, 21st Sep '12 1:53:18 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Well, if we can't find actual examples, it may well be that it's not really a trope, it's just something that someone wanted to complain about that feels like it ought to be a trope, and kind of might be, if you define "matriarchy" loosely enough and then squint hard.

I have to say, I can't honestly think of any that match the description: is called a Matriarchy, but the men are really in charge.

edited 21st Sep '12 1:54:25 PM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 37 Another Duck, Fri, 21st Sep '12 4:23:07 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I think it suffers in a similar way as Faux Action Girl. In that trope, if it wasn't a perfect heroine, it was automatically a Faux Action Girl. There were examples like Kim Possible, just because she didn't get the biggest spotlight in two finales, and didn't solve all problems (even if she was involved in the vast majority of the actual action).

Here, it gets thrown in if it's not a perfect and completely realistic example of a Matriarchy. And sometimes even if it's not a Matriarchy.

  • InfiniteStratos is more of an excuse setting, but doesn't actually show it isn't ruled by females. The events of a single exception of a male student isn't really enough to sway that, unless the Light Novel shows differently (but that's not written in the example).
  • Traveller seems to play with the Matriarchy trope, if that, but not this one.
  • Exalted seems to generally be an almost gender-equal society, much like in some real world countries, actually, but few people would call them "Patriarchy in name only".
  • Quest for Glory III has a comparison to lions, which isn't strictly either matriarchal or patriarchal. They have different roles, and act differently. If anything, it seems mostly accurate to what it claims to be, which means it's not an example.

Well, right or wrong, that's my cynical opinion, which I reserve for cynical tropes.

Now, I still think it's a legitimate trope, and there certainly are examples out there. There's just not a lot of them on the page.

edited 21st Sep '12 4:24:37 PM by AnotherDuck

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It does seem to have been based on an agenda. I can't think of any examples, either.

edited 22nd Sep '12 1:29:04 PM by abloke

 
I see two good examples.

  • The Princess Diaries is an inversion as Genovia is supposed to be ruled by a man, or at least a married woman, but the widow manages to pass it on to her unmarried granddaughter who feels confident that she can rule without a husband because she loves her country.

  • In Nobodys Princess of the Princesses of Myth series the crown goes to the daughter, Helen of Troy, but it's her brothers who are respected for being the important ones so much that Helen wants to go on adventures like them to prove herself.

I think we can just as well add the few examples we have to the Matriarchy page and mention the difference between being in name vs practice.

 40 Madrugada, Sat, 22nd Sep '12 7:13:58 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Genovia could be a Patriarchy in Name only, but in the other one, unless Helen got the crown because she was the daughter, and the ruler is always female, it's not a matriarchy. Matriarchy takes more than simply a female ruler. It's "women hold the power in the culture." Great Britain is still mostly patriarchal, even though the ruler is a Queen. Argentina under Eva Peron didn't suddenly turn into a matriarchy; same for Israel under Golda Meir. They were still patriarchies, they just happened to temporarily have female heads of state.

edited 22nd Sep '12 7:14:12 PM by Madrugada

'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
Personally, I think we should just delete the page. Any example that goes on there is likely to be debated because of the differences in what different people class as patriarchy and matriarchy (you mentioned Britain). If there are unquestionable examples, they can go on the Matriarchy page.
 
 42 Madrugada, Sun, 23rd Sep '12 7:45:00 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Could well be. To me, to be a Patriarchy or Matriarchy, there need to be social and cultural aspects as well as political.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
Helen did get the crown because she was the daughter. The ruler would be always female unless the royal family only has sons.

 44 Another Duck, Sun, 23rd Sep '12 1:24:53 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I think one problem is that people often seem to mix situations where matriarchy is used to mean a female-dominated society, and where it just about a place with a female ruler. Those are two completely different societies, with different implications.

A quick mention of the word can mean either. This trope claims it has to mean the former, where the entire society is female-dominated, and essentially puts its own values above the ones actually meant and used in the works.

There's also a tendency to describe both a society with a female leadership topped by a male king, and a society with a male leadership topped by a female queen as patriachies (or faux matriarchies, which amounts to the same thing).

It's okay for tropes to involve Double Standards in their examples or how the tropes are used, but it's not okay for the tropes themselves to have a Double Standard.

I'm leaning towards cutting or re-YKTTW-ing the whole trope.

edited 23rd Sep '12 1:28:02 PM by AnotherDuck

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[up]I can see one or more tropes about how gender relations work in fictional societies, but I think this is fatally flawed as it stands. Matriarchy and patriarchy are just descriptive terms. The trope seems to depend on categorizing societies as matriarchies, then scrutinizing whether they are <i>true</i> matriarchies, which doesn't make sense as this sort of thing is all relative and in most cases no one ever said the society was matriarchal.
 
 46 RJ Savoy, Tue, 25th Sep '12 7:29:01 AM from Edinburgh Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Reymmă
We risk getting bogged down in talking about what the word "matriarchy" means. One thing to remember is that "which group holds power in a society" is not a straightforward question. Many human societies expected women to hold real power within the household while men had the more overt political power. It is also very common to see women being revered and made prominent in a way men are not, but not allowed to make real decisions.

My suggestion is that we define this as women being stated to be in power (Informed Ability) but no women are seen making decisions. Oblige each example to quote the canon as to women being in power, and give the evidence that this is not what happens.

(My own variation on this in the setting I'm working on: a eusocial society with 4-5% fertile females, 7-9% fertile males and the remainder sterile females. Humans often assume that those they call "queens" are in charge; actually they are revered and looked after by their communities, but expected to stay at home and raise larvae. The communities are run by the more elderly workers, while political and military decisions are left to the males.)
 47 Madrugada, Tue, 25th Sep '12 8:39:34 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
My suggestion is that we define this as women being stated to be in power (Informed Ability) but no women are seen making decisions. Oblige each example to quote the canon as to women being in power, and give the evidence that this is not what happens.

That definition works for me. It's clear, it sidesteps all the grey areas (well, the vast majority of them), and it means that it will be easier to spot bad examples — either there's no canon statement that the women have the power, or we see that they do make decisions, even if it's not all the time.
'He strutted across the bedroom, his hard manhood pointing the way' sounds like he owns a badly named seeing-eye dog. 'Sit, Hard Manhood!
 48 Another Duck, Tue, 25th Sep '12 11:20:39 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
I can get behind that as well. That means the work actually has to define something itself that it later doesn't follow, rather than someone analysing the work and then defines and judges it based on different scales.

[up][up]There are two important parts regarding the meaning of the word: The exact definition is critical to the trope as it is written now, and it's being used with different meanings in a single example.

edited 25th Sep '12 11:23:27 AM by AnotherDuck

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If we define this as women being stated to be in power (Informed Ability) but no women are seen making decisions, do we have any examples that fit that?

 50 Another Duck, Thu, 27th Sep '12 11:37:39 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
Would need help from YKTTW, at least, I believe.
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Page Action: Matriarchy In Name Only
10th Jan '13 1:22:44 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Matriarchy In Name Only suffers from an insufficiently clear definition and was becoming "complaining about social structures you don't like".
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