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 126 Septimus Heap, Fri, 13th Jul '12 4:46:02 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Made the sandbox: Sandbox.Unfortunate Implications

It sill needs some tweaking, but when it's clean, we can swap it into Unfortunate Implications, cut the subpages and search for indexable tropes and the necessary citations.

Well, a quick glance and it's already leagues better.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
 128 Renelia, Thu, 19th Jul '12 11:04:04 AM from Inside a box
It looks a lot better I must say. Good work!

I'd like one of the sentences to be one person's thoughts not one person's thinking, but it's no big deal.

BTW: what if your proof is a book?

@Septimus:

Sandbox page looks fine, but... are there really that few salvageable examples??? I clearly see more examples with enough substance to stay (Millenium trilogy, "Blubber" etc.) Is example lifting still in progress?

 132 Septimus Heap, Thu, 26th Jul '12 4:15:27 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
We require citations here. I was taking those examples who already had one (no, just a weblink isn't a citation). If you want to add more examples for which you've found a citation, go ahead.

 133 Septimus Heap, Tue, 31st Jul '12 2:17:23 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Bumping here. Barring last-hour comments, I'll swap in the sandbox and cutlist the subpages.

 134 Septimus Heap, Wed, 1st Aug '12 10:51:40 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
OK, cutlisted subpages, examples put back on /Main/ and added a note in the source and the discussion.

Now we just need the index.

 135 ccoa, Wed, 1st Aug '12 11:38:04 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Shouldn't we redirect those to the main Unfortunate Implications page? Some of them have quite a few inbounds.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 136 Septimus Heap, Wed, 1st Aug '12 11:44:24 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Huh. Wasn't thinking of that.

Maybe I'm missing part of the discussion, but I honestly still don't understand how someone is supposed to "cite proof" for something as opinion-based as this trope.

The main rule of thumb here is that we can't post something if it's just our own (or someone else's) opinion, but it's going to be someone's opinion no matter what, isn't it? That's the nature of the trope. (It kind of goes along with it being YMMV)

If we can't add our own opinion or somebody else's opinion, whose can we add? What would be an acceptable place to cite proof from?

Can someone give me an example?

 138 Septimus Heap, Mon, 20th Aug '12 10:47:06 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
The proof is proof that it's a widely-held opinion. Not just one person's imagination. We have opinions here in YMMV, not Troper Tales. These opinions must be notable. One person's opinion isn't usually notable.

 139 Another Duck, Mon, 20th Aug '12 11:37:33 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
While I wasn't involved in the discussion, isn't it more about the Unfortunate Implication actually causing some kind of controversy, and the citation is there to prevent singular opinions that don't cause that controversy?

edited 20th Aug '12 11:38:24 AM by AnotherDuck

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 140 Septimus Heap, Mon, 20th Aug '12 11:39:27 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
[up]That too. It's basically a device to keep complaining and nonsense off.

How about just make this page define the trope, and leave examples in the respective media franchise's own YMMV page?
Yeah, that avatar's a 'Shop of my real face.
 142 Septimus Heap, Sat, 1st Sep '12 11:01:04 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
^We have decided not to do that. And we need the indedx here, people.

Does the same citation standard hold for works YMMV pages?
 
 144 Septimus Heap, Sun, 21st Oct '12 1:29:00 PM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Iunno. Don't expect enforcement of that to work (and would it be possible to create a functionality to prevent people from potholing certain tropes?), and we still need that index.

I think we should enact some kind of policy where UI are only listed if they have been acknowledged outside of TV Tropes. Otherwise, we'll have some examples that are just personal anecdotes from tropers (although that wouldn't mean that certain things aren't offensive, obviously). I think this is a policy that should also be enacted for other sensitive topics/tropes.
Hello Kitty isn't a cat. I don't know what to believe anymore.
Now that it's been a few months, I can say I'm not really liking the certification standard. I know a lot of people were upset with "standing on head to see UI" examples, but I still say people should be allowed their own interpretations of certain things (not to mention I think this is the only YMMV that has this rule which kinda defeats the purpose of YMMV. Anyway.) I know we're trying to drown the negativity, but we're not a fan site either so we shouldn't be "protecting" works from any sort of criticism, so to speak.

I'm only for a certification/link on work YMMV pages to avoid natter and edit wars in those pages.
 
 147 Another Duck, Mon, 29th Oct '12 5:16:17 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
It's not about protecting the works from criticism. It's about protecting the wiki from nonsense.

Yes, people are allowed their own interpretations, but the main wiki isn't for speculation and troper tales. That's where those kinds of things would belong. Many pages have some kind of loose fandom consensus definition for YMMV tropes, but that apparently didn't work here. I don't think anyone really wants to have [citation needed] added anywhere on the wiki, but if that's the only thing that keeps it decent without deleting all examples or locking the page, then it's not a bad solution, all things considered.
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 148 nrjxll, Mon, 29th Oct '12 11:19:51 PM Relationship Status: Not war
[up]This.

 149 Septimus Heap, Mon, 5th Nov '12 7:38:21 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
Ok, I've added an index here. Is there anything else to do here, or can I ask for closure? Having threads that can't get any attention around doesn't help anyone.

 150 nrjxll, Mon, 5th Nov '12 7:45:58 PM Relationship Status: Not war
[up]Well, there's the citation thing.

Page Action: Unfortunate Implications
26th Jun '12 12:00:22 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
The issue at stake is that the page as-is includes many nonsensical examples and is prime territory for edit wars.
Total posts: 155
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