World's Toughest Milkman
Seems to me like the current description works just fine as a supertrope. But we can discuss tweaking it, I suppose.
Speaking words of fandom: let it squee, let it squee.
So what are the steps involved in turning this into a supertrope - rewriting the description to be about the supertrope?
And making it clear (probably in bold) that the resemblance must be intentional. As for cleanup, I do berlieve that it's necessary, but it needs to be a Special Efforts thing with full wiki news support considering how misused the word has become.
What sort of cleanup is necessary?
Remove all the examples that are only based on fan perception and move them to Counterpart Comparison. If you want we can also make the definition very strict so that only confirmed intentional Expies are covered by the definition.
How do we tell apart if it's fan perception and actual expies?
That'll be the only issue we'll have. We could either:
- Redefine the trope so that only confirmed Expies are covered.
- Take a luck of the draw and move whatever seems to be unconfirmed to Counterpart Comparison.
Waxing, have you read the Counterpart Comparison page? Because it has nothing to do with fans seeing expies where there are none.
Yes, I've read the description, and it's a lot broader than fans seeing expies where there are none. It's about fans just seeing similarities in general, Expy or not, which is why all fan-perception-based non-examples of Expy can go there.
That would be a nice plan if a) there weren't 8200 wicks around and b) no way to tell apart correct wicks from incorrect ones. Guess we'll have to limit us to clean up the main trope example pages.
Stop being so pessimistic, Septimus. I have faith that we could fix this. It just needs major wiki support because, as you've said, it is a big endeavor.
How do we tell apart if it's fan perception and actual expies?By being familiar with the work, usually. Yes, that makes it difficult.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
From the Counterpart Comparison page:
We have two characters. They are similar to each other, but one was created after another. Whether one of them is the other's Expy, Captain Ersatz, Alternate Company Equivalent or even Distaff Counterpart, or it's a complete coincidence, fans will quickly realize the similarity. From this point they are going to look at the new character through the old character's prism.Seriously, are we looking at the same page? It's about fans comparing an expy to the original, not just being like "oh look, any Mysterious Waif who kills a lot must be an expy of River."
Yeah, it's bad enough we must have people familiar with two characters from more than one work to make a call. Why in the world would we make more work for ourselves to move their fan wank to another page? Zap the bad stuff you know are bad.
edited 10th Jan '13 11:27:38 PM by lu127
The "complete coincidence" part of that definition makes it a lot more versatile than just comparing an expy to the original. If it was solely about comparing an expy to the original, the audience reaction wouldn't even have a page at all.
Just removed some misused Expy tropes from the Pokemon characters page, my domain. I feel like one of two actions should be taken: 1) Expy is made a YMMV trope, and keeps its informal definition of "this character kinda sorta looks like that character from My Show to me". 2) Only Word of God-confirmed Expies are kept as tropes (For example, the character designer for the Dragon Ball Z anime has specifically stated that he designed the character Pikkon to resemble previous character Piccolo and act in a similar capacity, so that would be a concrete example of the trope, whereas saying Lt. Surge is an expy of Guile is just baseless speculation in addition to misuse of the definition). That or the ideas you're all bouncing back and forth here.
edited 17th Jan '13 10:42:43 AM by Anomalocaris20
There is middle ground between those two extremes.
edited 17th Jan '13 10:42:15 AM by troacctid
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Well, what is the current most likely suggestion?
Delete the examples that are baseless coincidences without requiring that all examples cite Word of God. And if someone says Gandalf is an expy of Dumbledore, you give them a nice hard slap in the face.
edited 17th Jan '13 10:48:42 AM by troacctid
Rhymes with "Protracted."
You mean, he isn't?! I am shocked.
The only problem is, in that middle ground there's a lot of room for subjectivity. What looks like an expy to one person is not to another. Not to mention, an expy is when the character designer deliberately based their character on another character, no? Which isn't possible to prove most of the time. Sheer coincidence happens, as does idea "stealing" that barely resembles the source at all. Just went and cleared out the baseless Expy examples from the Pokemon Characters pages, along with misuses of the misuses (Like You All Look Familiar being used for the purpose Expy is usually used for). God, that feels good to finally get rid of those, they've been bugging me for a long time. I can't say Expy is one of my favorite tropes. Shout Out gets misused in similar capacities; people take them and use it as an excuse to reference and advertise their favorite media on unrelated pages.
edited 17th Jan '13 12:09:50 PM by Anomalocaris20
I just think the only definite way we can cut down on the misuse is that we limit the definition to "same author/creators", because as I said before, at least with that there's a pattern that can be looked at and instead of this insanely broad definition now. If it were up to me, Expy would be that above definition and everything else would be Counterpart Comparison.
Mega J, with 7000 wicks to correct and the fact that the definition has expanded offwiki that idea is not practical.
It may not be practical but thus far the misuse has grown out of control and the line between the tropes are so blurry that I say it's worth a Special Efforts look. Also, Nightmare Fuel was finally fixed, even if that meant all that work and adding Accidental Nightmare Fuel (depsite the fact off Wiki Nightmare Fuel means Accidental Nightmare Fuel....) so I guess we have to ask if it's worth the effort.