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Five-Man Band cleanup
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Five-Man Band cleanup:

I'd get rid of the double cast roles, but i'd say avengers for the most part plays it straight. Banner is The Smart Guy, Iron Man is smart but thats not his defining characteristic in group dynamics. He is The Lancer. The Hulk is Big, but because the Hulk and Banner are the same character he's the only time he's not explicitly the Smart Guy is in fight scenes. So at best hes a Genius Bruiser. Thor fulfills most Big Guy roles throughout the movie.

Widow is The Chick in so far as she is fairly reliant on her femininity in manipulating the gangsters at the beginning of the movie and in tricking Loki towards the middle. She also convinces Banner to join the team, and is the main liaison unit within team being both a 'super hero' and a SHIELD agent.
This may throw a monkey wrench in the works so throw this out if you don't think its insightful, but (using Digimon Frontier as an example) I'd say The Tagalong Kig or an otherwise Small, Short or Young character is a subtrope of The Smart Guy in a Five-Man Band as much as things like The Medic are. It sets them up as a contrast to the large in size Big Guy. Some teams that don't have an explicitly more intelligent member will have a small in size member for visual diversity at the least.

This is related to an early post i made in a TRS thread that the Five-Man Band can be either about group dynamics-character traits (Leader, Foil, Brawn, Brain, Heart) or about visual diversity-character design (Heroic, Anti Heroic, Large, Small, Feminine) which I think is part of the shoehorning. Sometimes teams are one but not the other. Sometimes teams are both. Sometimes theyre both but mixed and matched.

edited 30th Jul '12 9:39:30 PM by acrobox

 103 Spark 9, Tue, 31st Jul '12 3:48:22 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Some extra opinions please:

On the Five-Man Band/Toys subpage, I've removed the listing for G.I. Joe and He Man, and troper ickymameshiba has put them back with no comment. So are these valid examples or not?

I feel G.I. Joe is not a five-man team; the team is much bigger than that, and indeed the entry lists "everybody else is the sixth ranger", which sounds rather dubious to me. I'm not familiar enough with the series to figure out whether the roles are shoehorned.

He Man looks like a shoehorn to me. Just compare the Five-Man Band entry to its own character sheet page and you'll see that Man-At-Arms is not The Lancer (although Teela might be), Stratos is not The Smart Guy, and Teela is not The Chick (although the raven sorceress might be, or perhaps Orko), and being a token minority does not make Klamp Champ a sixth ranger. At any rate, the series is never a five man team.

Special trousers. Very heroic.
 104 Septimus Heap, Tue, 31st Jul '12 3:57:50 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wiuzard boy
Add a note not to add entries there without consulting the thread first. Given that you gave a reason for removing, it can probably be repulled with a notice to go here.

 105 Spark 9, Tue, 31st Jul '12 3:57:52 AM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
And while I'm editing anyway, I'm cleaning out video games D-F.

Diablo: character classes are not a band.

Disgaea: since the entry states that it's a subversion because the smart guy can beat the big guy easily in combat, this makes me think it's a shoehorn. Anyone familiar with the work who wants to comment?

Disgaea4: too many people.

Dissidia: clearly a shoehorn, requires extensive justification, and too many people.

Donkey Kong 64: if the smart guy is not smart, then he's not the smart guy.

Eternal Sonata: one guy in multiple roles. Freedom Fighters ditto.

Fallout: same principle as Baldur's Gate, you can recruit multiple people in any combination or order, so this is clearly not a five man band.

Final Fantasy IV: clear shoehorn. VII ditto. Fire Emblem radiant dawn ditto.

Fire Emblem the blazing sword: too many people.

Special trousers. Very heroic.
 106 Another Duck, Tue, 31st Jul '12 8:53:15 AM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
Disgaea is a little weird, for that exact reason. First off, all roles aside from The Big Guy fit very well. Gordon note  wants to be The Hero, but comes off as The Big Guy. I don't remember if Jennifer is actually physically stronger, but she's more skilled at just about everything. I would say that the example fits, though. The Big Guy isn't just about being the strongest, but also about playing that role in the story. Jennifer doesn't do that. Gordon does. Thus, I'm not sure I'd even call it a subversion in the first place.

Edit: Stat-wise in the actual game, Gordon is the stronger one.

edited 31st Jul '12 8:58:36 AM by AnotherDuck

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DK 64 might count. There isn't much characterization in the game, but I think he's one of the weakest characters, and he has to use his skills more instead of doing action-y things. And he's based on an orangutan.

Fallout looks like it counts too:

Ian is the first companion you're likely to get, and his personality contrasts the protagonist (he's an experienced Wastelander, you're fresh from the vault)

Then later on you can recruit fighter-guy Tycho (high strength, low intelligence), sneaky-girl Katja (low strength, high intelligence), and, at some point, Tandi will get kidnapped and you'll have to rescue her, and she's useless.

It seems obvious that when all the possible companions were being thought up, they ended up falling into this trope.

edited 31st Jul '12 1:27:36 PM by abk0100

World's Toughest Milkman
I think The Chick is the most commonly shoehorned role, and the one we should probably look the most closely at in most of these examples. For example, I do not agree that the Black Widow fills this role in the Avengers movie.

Another case where I think The Chick is being sadly abused is Leverage, which actually provides the page image for FiveManBand.Live Action TV. Parker is not The Chick even slightly, IMO. If anything, that role is provided by Sophie, who is also definitely The Lancer. Parker is there to provide dexterity and acrobatics! Her role is closer to that of The Thief in a standard role-playing-game party.

edited 31st Jul '12 2:55:36 PM by Xtifr

"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
 109 Another Duck, Tue, 31st Jul '12 5:16:03 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
The Fallout team is still optional, though, and they don't really behave like a Five-Man Band as such.
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I have added back the Dissidia example. The given rationale for removal was flimsy.

Cloud is looked up to by the other characters as composed and leaderly, this is directly remarked upon by them. Cecil takes charge of the group whenever Cloud is gone and heads off on his own to find information about the Crystals, his background as a knight also serving as a foil to Cloud as a soldier/mercenary. Tidus is athletic and acrobatic, and the most gung-ho about fighting his designated opponent. Firion is the most introspective and philosophical, musing about his reasons for fighting and his dreams for the future. Terra is a magical girl warrior who fights for the hopes of others and grows into a Plucky Girl archetype, and is also a sixth ranger in that when Cloud goes off from the group for a time, she joins up with him with the Onion Knight and joins the larger group when the six of them meet up again.

The only real conflict I see here is that Firion could also be seen as The Chick. I understand The Chick is the emotional center of the group, and without going into detail about how this occurs, Firion's dream is spread around the group and Cloud tells him his dream has become their dream and given them all hope. But even then, Terra still fits the idea of a Sixth Ranger so she and Onion Knight can still be included and there's still six people.

edited 2nd Aug '12 8:45:15 AM by DrakeClawfang

I was at the baseball stadium thinking the other day "why does a baseball look larger the closer it gets?" And then it hit me
 111 Septimus Heap, Thu, 2nd Aug '12 8:50:08 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wiuzard boy
Could you readd things after having discussed them here, not before, please? We don't need edit warring.

 112 lu 127, Thu, 2nd Aug '12 8:53:17 AM from the Capital of Light Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Cecil never acts as a lancer. He never acts as a foil to Cloud and there is no tension between them. Terra is not The Chick—she has none of the emotional qualities that constitute The Chick, ergo offering emotional support and keeping the group together. In fact, she's the one in need of support most of the time.

Firion is the most introspective and philosophical, musing about his reasons for fighting and his dreams for the future.

...Which is not what The Smart Guy is.

So, no, Dissidia does not have a Five-Man Band. Especially since those heroes rarely even work together.
人を呪わば 穴二つ
^^There hasn't been edit warring, not yet. In the meantime if you want to complain about the semantics instead of discussing the actual topic at hand, I'm down for that though I prefer the latter.


^Alright, I still disagree but if this is the decision I'll abide by it.

edited 2nd Aug '12 8:55:28 AM by DrakeClawfang

I was at the baseball stadium thinking the other day "why does a baseball look larger the closer it gets?" And then it hit me
Doesn't it make more sense to hold off deleting things in the first place until they've been discussed?

I'm still waiting for a good reason for not including Fallout. It's a group of exactly 5 characters that fit each character type. We're trying to get rid of obvious shoehorning - not stamp out every bit of Tropes Are Flexible.

World's Toughest Milkman
My knowledge of Fallout starts with 3, which isn't helpful here.

I would like some agreement/disagreement on my suggestion that Leverage doesn't fit, because pulling that will require an image-picking thread.
"Existential Despair" is an oxymoron.
Seeking for Light
I just finished cleaning what I could off of Professional Wrestling. (I think I axed over half the page, mostly for failing to have a Chick.) However, the page seems to have its examples in completely random order, but I know wrestling pages sometimes follow different ordering schemes than the other pages, so if someone familiar with the genre could look it over and either organize it (alphabetical is typical for these subpages) or vet that it is actually organized in a way that would make sense to fans, that would be good.

 117 Spark 9, Sun, 5th Aug '12 1:44:01 PM from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
@ABK: in general, yes. In this particular case, no, since TRS has decided that many of the examples are just wrong (with clear criteria as to which) and should be pulled.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
In the discussion you're talking about, the only options that won were "Remove examples that have a single character fulfill multiple roles." and "Allow examples with 4-6 individuals, but all the roles must be in use."

None of that relates to your issue with the Fallout example.

 119 Another Duck, Tue, 7th Aug '12 10:21:51 PM from Stockholm Relationship Status: Chocolate!
No, the other one.
The Fallout 1 team is still, as I mentioned before, optional, and they don't behave as a team. There's no group dynamic to speak of, and most importantly, unless you Sequence Break (as much as it can be considered in that game), you won't ever have all characters in the team at once.

More specifically, Ian is not any more The Lancer than any other experienced wastelander. Tandi is a damsel you save once, but isn't part of the team.

Not an example. This doesn't even have to do with said crowner in that thread.
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 120 Game Chainsaw, Fri, 10th Aug '12 7:47:59 AM from sunshine and rainbows!
The Shadows Devour You.
Took an axe to the Azumanga Daioh example. There are six of them, but there's no clear leader amongst the girls and certainly no clear Lancer.
Seeking for Light
Someone just added The Dark Knight and The Dark Knight Rises to the Film pages. Now, while I've only seen the first one in pieces and none of the second, I'm inclined to think that they fail the "characters are a team" criteria—Batman is far too much of a loner to ever truly be part of such a large team. Not to mention from what I have seen of The Dark Knight, none of those characters ever form a cohesive team.

But I'd like feedback from someone with more familiarity with the films before I cut the examples, to make sure I'm not missing something.

 122 Septimus Heap, Mon, 13th Aug '12 11:08:45 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wiuzard boy
I am not familiar with the shows, but a) if it's like regular Batman it indeed isn't a team and b) they should discuss it in this thread rather than just add it.

More specifically, Ian is not any more The Lancer than any other experienced wastelander.

Yes, he really clearly is. His main purpose as your companion is to be your more-experience counterpart.

I'm really getting annoyed by this idea that anything that isn't a perfectly straight, run-of-the-mill example should just be deleted. I'd like to hear a good reason why it's a bad thing to have an example that says something like "The Five Man Band in this example doesn't act a single group, but the main character has 4 team-mates that all fit the character-types of this trope:"

 124 Septimus Heap, Mon, 13th Aug '12 11:28:27 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wiuzard boy
Five-Man Band is a team, not just 5 tropes mashed together.

 125 Deboss, Mon, 13th Aug '12 11:28:54 AM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
Having seen both films, no group could be effectively called a Five-Man Band. There's no real band, there's just some dudes who know each other.
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