Sexism and Men's Issues

Ow! Reading Fisher's (far too numerous) comments in that article physically hurt. I'm still rubbing my eyes right now.
Hell, I thought that men having the expectation to initiate relationships was passe and probably harmful; yet reading him comment on it and say something similar in crazy-speak made me briefly consider changing that position.

It needs to be pointed out that in the western world men not being allowed to take paternity leave is pretty much only an issue in the US and Mexico (Switzerland also doesn't have legally mandated paternity leave, but apparently that's only because most Swiss employers offer paternity leave without needing a legal order telling them to).

That doesn't mean that it's not an issue at all, of course. I only mention it because of the ridiculous number of, especially British, supposed 'Male Rights Activists' (read: shitlords) I've seen complaining about how unfair it is that if they had a child they wouldn't get any paternity leave even though, living in the UK as they do, they totally would get the 14+ weeks of paternity leave that the legal mandate says they're entitled to.

The US and Mexico are still pretty big places with significant populations, though to be fair in good old America women have trouble taking maternity leave too so it's not just a men's issue.

I'd say there's definitely still a social stigma against men taking paternity leave though and in general a huge disparity between which gender usually has to do the most child-rearing.

I will say that at least in the US the laws are very biased towards "women as caretakers", which sucks for women in certain ways (reproductive rights), but also leads to things like our fucked laws on paternity leave, and the social rules around where men are allowed to be around children without being accused of pedophilia.

X3 Its only a legal issue in the US and Mexico but it's a cultural one in a ton of other places, men are still expected to go back to work after their paternity leave, they'd be laughed at for deciding to quit work so as to focus on raising their child.

Culturally there's still a huge stigma about men interacting with children, for tabloid lead witch hunts to the culture of shame that's pushed on men taking pride in having a child. Your wonky allowed to be fatherly once you hit a certain age, a younge man wanting or enjoying having children is seen as weird and wrong.

edited 25th Apr '17 5:51:17 PM by Silasw

I didn't know tigers had such a sexist culture.

I really wish I knew enough about tiger culture to make a joke here, let's pretend I do and all laugh, okay?

edited 25th Apr '17 5:52:08 PM by Silasw

One thing that happened here when men taking care of children became more acceptable was that several men spoke up about it. While it doesn't seem like much, having even one celebrity speaking up like that can affect a surprising amount. I remember one guy who spoke up, who wasn't really a big name or anything, but people knew him as a rather machismo man, and having a guy like him say, "Being a father is awesome," does have an impact. Now, Sweden is very progressive even without that, so we would've gotten where we are without things like that, but every bit helps.

Yeah that's very much the problem, men don't speak up, we don't challenge the role we're assigned even though it hurts us, men with power and influence and the biggest enforcers of thease gender roles, because they became men of power and influence by being good and holding to the role.

So anyone seen the new Lynx ad that soushing back against traditional male gender roles? It specifically calls out the idea of "real men x" as toxic.

Lynx is what the Axe body spray is called in Europe right?

If that is the case just forget about it, they are a lost cause in that regard, their adds smell like toxic masculinity like their deodorants smell bad.

Unless what's called Axe in Germany is something different in the US too, o doubt it?

Axe body wash is definitely toxic masculinity. Give me Old Spice any day.

edited 6th Jun '17 12:22:12 PM by TheHandle

X3 Interesting that it's the same brand, because we're obviously seeing different ads. The ad I saw was actually very progressive, hell I think I've given them shoutouts in this thread before for having ads that show a variety of men with a variety of definitions of masculinity.

This is going to seem odd and random, but bear with me.

There's a Simpsons episode — I forget which one, but it was a "Treehouse of Horror" — in which a bunch of dead celebrities return from the grave to protest their images being used in advertising. As the whole horde descends on Earth, we see John Wayne regarding Prince quizzically. The Duke says "Son, is that mustache coming or going?" to which the Purple One replies "Well, your wife likes it." Wayne looks taken aback for a moment, than laughs and slaps Prince on the back, finishing with 'You're all right, Goofy Grape."

I've always found something oddly heartening and hopeful about this scene. You've got John Wayne and Prince, two very different men, to very different kinds of men, finding a measure of camaraderie. It's a single, throwaway scene, but I've always liked it, because it's kind of what we all hope for, right? Acceptance and camaraderie. regardless of difference.

They have been changing of late, but "the Lynx/Axe effect" is a major Never Live It Down moment for the brand(s).

This is probably the only time I've been grateful for the social conservatism here sparing me that tripe.

I am guessing this is the advert in question

It is definitely an improvement on the previous type of ads they put out.

Hmm not bad, but still dodging the actual question? Its not giving the 'yes' these questions all deserve and instead goes for a 'search online'.

So a good start, but a weak landing?

Of course the answer here is yes, the part with searching is more about how many people are asking these same questions. It's less a question of if/isn't, and more a sign of solidarity, a sign of how common those questions are.

Yeah, pretty much. It's not telling you that certain specific things are okay for guys. It's telling you that wondering about things like these is perfectly normal, without specifying which things. Since it doesn't specify which things, the message is that it's okay to wonder about who you are, and who you should be.

The answer to most questions like that is "yes", but not all of them. Some things are illegal, some are morally wrong. But without questioning them in the first place, it's hard to figure out where things stand, and whether they should stand like that. The important part is finding the answer yourself, and be comfortable with it, rather than to be told what it is.

Of course, the implied answer is that the magic is the advertised product, but that's somewhat irrelevant in this discussion.

It's a good ad to talk about Men's Issues, but I feel like it's a bad one for their products I mean, contrast and compare with the following one.

I actually love this ad.

That{s a good one.

I've always wondered why it's us as men who make up a disproportionate proportion of violent or sexual crimes. I know it's not a healthy, rational, or even true thought process, but there are times where I feel like I am inherently evil because of it.

Short answer is Toxic Masculinity. Men make up a majority of violent perpetrators because men are culturally encouraged to be violent. Violence has been married to societal expectations of masculinity for thousands of years, across a wide variety of cultures and nations, and remains so to this day.

It's in rites of passage like, "Prove that you're a man: go hunting and kill something!" It's in the ideal that all men and only men should serve in military. It's in fictional narratives about men proving their greatness by doing violence to bad dudes, often winning female-shaped trophies in the process. It's in the conventional wisdom that you shouldn't stop boys from fighting 'cause boys will be boys.

In the same way that Toxic Femininity is married to sexuality, Toxic Masculinity is married to violence.