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Sexism and Men's Issues
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Sexism and Men's Issues:

 126 Barkey, Sun, 24th Jun '12 7:45:35 PM from Bunker 051 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
^

Pretty much.

Female to male harassment can cut pretty damn deep though, depending on the woman and the audience. Say, around friends, being emasculated and insulted by an attractive woman is pretty much self-esteem disembowelment for many men. A woman who isn't terribly attractive really doesn't have much staying power in insulting a man if the two don't know each other beyond perhaps acquaintances.

Male on male harassment as opposed to tough love endearment sort of stuff is often considered par for the course, and it's usually conducted with the rules of engagement of a vulture. Go for the weak targets who won't fight back or are easy targets by virtue of certain qualities they may have, stay neutral with people who can actually step up to the plate verbally or have confidence. Don't be the easiest target on the playing field at the time, and you pretty much don't have to worry about it. I suppose that is a competitive element of a sort, always making sure there's someone easier to fuck with in your general vicinity.

Generalizations, to be sure, but that's been my overall experience with things like that.
The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.
 127 Gabrael, Sun, 24th Jun '12 8:37:38 PM Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
[up] Agreed. I have seen most of these contexts in a romantic/sexual situation, like at night clubs. I used to DD for friends and I would either watch or sometimes experience crap like this.

But when it comes to hormones and horniness, I operate under the "humans are dumbasses" premise until proven otherwise.
 128 Karalora, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:14:57 PM from San Fernando Valley, CA Relationship Status: In another castle
Manliest Person on Skype
Hey, Gabrael, in reference to your post on the last page, can I request that you not refer to women as "females"?* (You shouldn't refer to men as "males" either, but that seems to happen less often.)

Barkey, you talk a lot about male culture and how not to be victimized by it. Maybe this is a wacky idea, but what if guys didn't have to worry about that because male culture changed so that they stopped victimizing each other? Would that be okay with you?
 129 Ramidel, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:18:59 PM Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Ah, what's wrong with referring to males and females?

 130 Karalora, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:21:06 PM from San Fernando Valley, CA Relationship Status: In another castle
Manliest Person on Skype
It makes it sound like you're talking about lab animals instead of people.
Euo will do!
It does? <honestly confused>

Maybe I did spend too long in practicals at uni... [lol]
"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 132 Karalora, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:28:33 PM from San Fernando Valley, CA Relationship Status: In another castle
Manliest Person on Skype
Using "male" and "female" as adjectives is fine. The trouble is when you use them as nouns, and especially if you use one but not the other. I can't count the number of times I've seen someone refer to "men, " contrasting them with "females." It's terribly dehumanizing.
 133 Drunk Girlfriend, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:33:57 PM from Castle Geekhaven
[up] I know that I'm probably guilty of doing that, but that's because I'm sick of getting bitched at about how "women" is derogatory*. xP
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Euo will do!
Wait a sec... if one is dehumanising, and the other is derogatory... what the heck are we supposed to use? o.0
"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 135 Heavy DDR, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:37:06 PM from Central Texas
What's Gravity Falls.
We can't use "female" and "male" to accurately describe females and males.

...

OK, how about "It 1" and "It 2?"
I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
 136 Derelict Vessel, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:39:03 PM from the Ocean Blue
Flying Dutchman
Most feminists I've had the pleasure of talking to have told me that they'd prefer women as a noun and female as an adjective outside of scientific contexts.
"Can ye fathom the ocean, dark and deep, where the mighty waves and the grandeur sweep?"

Euo will do!
<mind officially boggled>

They're both cromulent words to define femaleness in whatever context. People swap "male" and "men" all the time without getting knickers (or boxers) in a twist over dehumanisation. Why can't we?

edited 24th Jun '12 10:42:27 PM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 138 Barkey, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:43:55 PM from Bunker 051 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
Barkey, you talk a lot about male culture and how not to be victimized by it. Maybe this is a wacky idea, but what if guys didn't have to worry about that because male culture changed so that they stopped victimizing each other? Would that be okay with you?

I wouldn't have anything against it. I wasn't championing it, I was just stating my observations on the general way of things. I'm not exactly at the top of the male pecking order/totem pole where I'm immune to being fucked with, not by any means. Your tone seems to imply that I like and approve of that facet of male culture.

^

Can men be 1? 1 most closely resembles a penis and all. tongue

@ Gabrael

I use Male and Female often too. That was how we were supposed to refer to eachother in boot camp, and it's something that sticks with people to varying degrees sometimes. I catch myself with civilian friends sometimes when they give me a weird look, and I realize that I was describing a person we were discussing as "That female wearing green over in the parking lot" or "Those males playing soccer across the street" or something to that tune. I realize that it does sound rather clinical from an outward perspective, but meh, I don't really notice anymore. When I'm on duty autopilot kicks in and people stop being men and women and go back to being male and female.

edited 24th Jun '12 10:46:11 PM by Barkey

The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.
 139 Heavy DDR, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:49:30 PM from Central Texas
What's Gravity Falls.
If you look closely at the number 2, it does sort of look like a boob...
I'm pretty sure the concept of Law having limits was a translation error. -Wanderlustwarrior
 140 Barkey, Sun, 24th Jun '12 10:52:27 PM from Bunker 051 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
War Profiteer
Either tilt your head left, or roll your monitor onto its right side, and 2 totally looks like a side profile of a chicks rack. Just sayin.
The AR-15 is responsible for 95% of all deaths each year. The rest of the deaths are from obesity and drone strikes.
 141 0dd 1, Sun, 24th Jun '12 11:51:23 PM from Nowhere Land
Just awesome like that
The bottom of the 2 looks kinda like a "less than" sign, which itself looks like a V turned sideways.
Insert witty and clever quip here.

My page, as the database hates my handle.

My music.
 142 Gabrael, Mon, 25th Jun '12 1:23:37 AM Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
I disagree.

If you noticed, I used a variety of biologically appropos terms for both genders. I'll continue to use females and males if I feel like it. Not to intentionally be an ass, but because honestly I really don't think it's a problem.

Being too politically correct has a greater threat of dehumanizing in my mind. We're nothing but glorified mammals anyway.

A lot of the problems we're discussing in this thread can be traced back to our more animalistic days and our instinctual coping either with or against social functions anyway.

If me calling myself a female makes me closer to a lab rat, well. Squeek squeek tongue
Euo will do!
[up]Ditto. Well, except, I maintain that I'm a gracile great ape, and proud of it! You know, I think we went wrong the moment we thought we were better than everybody else in the animal kingdom.
"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 144 Black Humor, Mon, 25th Jun '12 2:56:46 AM from Zombie City
Not that it matters now you've ignored Karalora's polite request (*glare*), but I agree that "females" is dehumanizing.

It's not so bad when you're talking about "males and females", but in my experience "men and females" has been such a consistent sign of misogyny-to-come that I've taken to not warning people just so I can have the tell. Even the one time I saw "males and women" the poster turned out to have some man-hating tendencies. It's just uncanny how well it works.
I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
 145 Oh So Into Cats, Mon, 25th Jun '12 4:57:06 AM from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
If we're going with gender binary and male is 1 because it looks like a penis, wouldn't female logically be 0?

edited 25th Jun '12 4:57:18 AM by ohsointocats

"Beware of the wolves. They were raised by wolves."

Eidolonomics: ~60.4k/100,000 words
 146 Gabrael, Mon, 25th Jun '12 5:46:28 AM Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
Black Humor, glare all you want. I'm neither a male or a female hater or basher. All humans are flawed little things.

When do we draw the line at too politically correct? When does that become a problem in itself?

If I were a biologist or an anthropologist, would that change how the use of male or female felt?

I respect Karalora enough to be completely honest with her. I also am not going to be a hypocrite and say I'll try, then slip up in a few posts by complete habit. As Barkey pointed out, some of us have been in enviroments so long where that is a preferred term, that we don't think of it.

Pulling around on topic, are there certain words or phrases men can use that girls' can't, and visa versa? What affects do you think this has on how men are viewed?

The first thing that popped in my head is swearing. The second issue was the manner in how men and women talk about sex in public.
 147 Karalora, Mon, 25th Jun '12 6:29:32 AM from San Fernando Valley, CA Relationship Status: In another castle
Manliest Person on Skype
When do we draw the line at too politically correct? When does that become a problem in itself?

Certainly not at the point where we're using normal, straightforward words to refer to people. It's not like I'm asking you to call me a Vagino-American. It's just bizarre how many people I've seen be perfectly comfortable with "man" but go through the most tortured circumlocutions to avoid simply saying "woman."

Just...say it! Woman! It's not hard! You question why you should have to conform to my preferences in a conversation, I question why and how you've been conditioned to refer to half of humanity with a word not normally encountered outside a laboratory or police report.

If I were a biologist or an anthropologist, would that change how the use of male or female felt?

Maybe. Are you a biologist or anthropologist? I kind of doubt it, since you don't typically contrast "males" with "females"—you go ahead and say "men."

The first thing that popped in my head is swearing. The second issue was the manner in how men and women talk about sex in public.

Ah, yes, the topic. Can you be more specific?
Okay. I just did a tally. Here are the number of times the words "Male" or "Female" were used explicitly as a noun where "man" or "woman" could have been substituted. I sectioned each instance by troper. I did not count any times after the debate on the term started—only before.

Words used by tropers

  • Drunk Girlfriend: 1 Female
  • Carcifus: 3 Female, 3 Male
  • Breadloaf: 2 Female, 12 Male
  • Mura: 1 Female, 2 Male
  • Ramidel: 1 Female, 5 Male
  • Barkey: 1 Male
  • Black Humor: 1 Female
  • Euo: 1 Female
  • Minister: 1 Female
  • Heavy DDR: 1 Male
  • Abstractematics: 1 Female, 4 Male
  • Odd1: 2 Male
  • Gabrael: 1 Female

Totals

  • Number of times said: 12 Female, 30 Male
  • Number of tropers per word: 10 tropers said "Female", 8 tropers said "Male"

edited 25th Jun '12 6:51:32 AM by KingZeal

 149 0dd 1, Mon, 25th Jun '12 6:57:51 AM from Nowhere Land
Just awesome like that
[up][up]You're acting like the words "male" and "female" aren't at all straightforward and can only be used to express some deep-seated misogyny or misandry unless used in a scientific context.

edited 25th Jun '12 6:58:59 AM by 0dd1

Insert witty and clever quip here.

My page, as the database hates my handle.

My music.
 150 wuggles, Mon, 25th Jun '12 8:02:09 AM from Miami, FL Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
How about we stick to men and women. Nobody gets offended that way. Or males and females. But no "men and females".
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