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The Problem with Protecting the "Sacred":

I personally would want to take the class and see what the Professor had to say, and how the Bible-stomping related to whatever point he was trying to get across.

Is that cake frosting?
I am generally inclined to forgiveness, even in the case of that student: but only if it is crystal clear that this sort of behaviour is not remotely acceptable. I'm fine to say that he should be forgiven, this time; but only if we are agreed that what he did was deserving of the highest censure and, yes, even of dismissal from college grounds. Forgiveness does require an admission of guilt; and I find it disheartening that the "religious freedom" card is used to justifying stealing and desecrating the holy items of a religion.

There are Catholics who say that the notion of "secular state" is nonsense and just a fancy buzzword for atheists to push their agenda; and that ultimately, the notion of "non-confessional state" is meaningless. I think that they are wrong, deeply wrong; following Erasmus of Rotterdam, one of my personal heroes, I believe that everything can be discussed with politeness and toleration for opposing viewpoints, so that
the truth, which is often lost amidst too much wrangling may be more surely perceived.
I would hate to have to tell these people that they were right, and that ultimately the only alternative is the one between being crusaders and being apostates.

Look, you say that stealing and desecrating the Eucharist is acceptable, we will have to put guards on the entrances of Churches, just as Myers mocked. I don't want that. I positively loathe the idea.

Criticize us as much as you want, but hands off. Is this really too much to ask?

Please.

There are other issues that I might discuss; but frankly, I am getting far too heated up on this than it is sensible to be for a forum thread. Better if I step out of it, at least for a while.

edited 16th Jun '12 3:05:57 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 528 Knightof Lsama, Sat, 16th Jun '12 3:06:27 AM from The Sea of Chaos
Criticize us as much as you want, but hands off. Is this really too much to ask?

Please.

The answer to this is simple.

Yes, it is too much to ask. It is asking us to endorse a form of religious intolerance, specifically against those of us with no religion who hold that nothing is sacred and everything is open to question (and if found wanting, yes, mockery, denigration and ridicule to expose them if considered harmful).

By asking this you ask us to shackle our own consciences. You ask us to actively and willing participate in our own disenfranchisement. You ask us and bow down and agree that your feelings are more important than our simply because you are religious and we are not.

There are several possible responses to this but it boils down to a simple response. THIS WE WILL NOT DO! *.
Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
Is that cake frosting?
Ok. I have pleaded. I have bent myself over backwards to be as accommodating to other beliefs as possible without committing outright apostasy. Many would say that in doing so, I actually did a disservice to the Church; and perhaps they would be right. And, note, I never said that you cannot talk against the Eucharist; I only said that you cannot go and steal it or desecrate it.

And in return, I have been called intolerant by people who have outright stated that they consider destroying a sacred object a viable method of debate.

Alright, fuck this with a chainsaw.

Say or do what you want, I cannot stop you (generic "you", of course); but know this. If you steal from a Church or desecrate it, or do the same to the Holy Eucharist, I will consider you the enemy of all that is good and just that you are, and I will deal with you accordingly. I will stop before anything outright illegal, like the death threats that people sent to that kid: but if you believe that I will stop half a millimeter before that, you will be disappointed. And — this should go without saying — if I can request you to be removed from my workplace, I will sure as hell do so.

I will consider accepting apologies and attempts of reparation; but I will not accept anything less than total surrender.

And if you whine about the unfairness of it, I cannot say that I will be particularly impressed by that. And if you talk about tolerance... well, I will keep a link to this thread at hand.

And now I'm out of here, for reals. I hope that I have made my position sufficiently clear.

edited 16th Jun '12 9:42:48 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I am generally inclined to forgiveness, even in the case of that student: but only if it is crystal clear that this sort of behaviour is not remotely acceptable. I'm fine to say that he should be forgiven, this time; but only if we are agreed that what he did was deserving of the highest censure and, yes, even of dismissal from college grounds.

I would have to say no. The punishment for stealing and breaking a sacred biscuit should, under the law, be no worse than stealing and breaking someone's potato chip. Any special signifigance you ascribe to a biscuit (or "Host" as you say) is your own business.

In short, the punishment must be reasonable and proportionate to the crime. Expelling someone for breaking a biscuit is an unreasonable and disproportionate punishment.

edited 16th Jun '12 5:10:40 AM by Talby

 531 Knightof Lsama, Sat, 16th Jun '12 3:55:26 AM from The Sea of Chaos
stated that they consider destroying a sacred object a viable method of debate.

Then answer me this if you will before you leave. Why?

Why is your belief that a piece of bread is sacred because a priest said a blessing over it superior to my belief that its just a frelling cracker and deserves to be treated with all the respect that such an object deserves (being precisely none) and that if I get my hands on one I can do whatever the frack I want with it? Why should I hold your beliefs above my own?

And just to be preemptive no, I don't consider people having their feelings hurt or being insulted a valid reason. Quite frankly, some ideas and beliefs need insulting.
Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
 532 Gabrael, Sat, 16th Jun '12 4:27:45 AM from My musings Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
A Polar Bear Named Gabrael
@ Pykrete, I have answered this question, in multiple forms. I have explained the specific nature of my immediate community and that if they did not have the problems they did then there would probably never be a need for my professor to ever use shock tactics.

I am not going to keep repeating myself. And I am not going to be baited. I never said they "deserved it". I said it works. The point is made. Those who can't handle it leave and the world keeps spinning.
"Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." -Groucho Marx
 533 Blurring, Sat, 16th Jun '12 5:26:18 AM from Ampang, Selangor, Malaysia.
Finding things changing
[up]Carc doesn't ask you to hold his belief above yours. He just ask that people should not steal the wafer just for the sake of hurting people whom Carc at least disagree with some of their points. B Ecause it hurt him too.
Attention to all personnel, prepare to eat lunch. This is not a drill, I repeat, this is not a drill.
I'm an Irene!
Except the cracker being stolen was to ask why there isn't another way to do it. It's not even for that. Nobody was actually hurt. More correctly, they were butthurt, which is a completely different scenario. I may not like throwing that word around, but this is one of those times when it perfectly fits.

Which is why this so-called punishment that's being asked for is widely disproportionate. Questioning something should never be punishable. The behavior wasn't the greatest, but there's more than "the guy stole something", and ignoring the context just makes me sad, truthfully.

An intolerance for questioning what's sacred or not just makes me facepalm at this point.
 535 blackcat, Sat, 16th Jun '12 6:05:56 AM Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
It looks to me like the topic has been thoroughly thrashed out, lines drawn and opinions expressed. Any further discussion will only become acrimonious. Let's call it a day ladies and gentlemen.
Love extends the boundaries of what people can accept, but don't depend on it.
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Total posts: 535
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