Finding and removing Kodomo no Jikan and Lotte no Omocha references

I've been working on this using the google site search (because I'm not normally a huge fan of anime or manga, so I wouldn't generally know the pages either would tend to show up on) but I think we could make a more organized special effort to remove stuff related to either.

Picked these two for the special effort because of the following:

• All appeals are over and they are not even possibly coming back so there is no possibility of removing something that could be, someday, restored in some form
• They're the two biggest "problematic" ones likely to show up on a fair amount of places - most of the other cut material may be on one page or two at most, but there are mentions of these everywhere
• They're mentions of actual things that happened in the cut material, not simply, say memes or shoutouts with a reference that "this came from Squicktackular"

site search link for Kodomo no Jikan

site search link for Lotte no Omocha

edited 18th May '12 4:17:02 PM by AGroupie

If you are, like me, overwhelmed by all the forum discussion links Google shows to you, try these links:

Find wiki pages containing "Kodomo no Jikan"

Find wiki pages containing "Lotte no Omocha"

Just to make sure: this means we zap all mentions, not just de-wicking? (I want to avoid going too far and comitting vandalism...)

I'm pretty sure in regard to both of these, it's a "zap all mentions" as well as delink. Might need a mod to clarify.

I'm comfortable in my belief that permanent removal of these pages (and marking them as "we don't want a page on this topic") means yes, we don't want material about them on the wiki, meaning all entries must go. I'll go zap a few.

Zapped most Kodomo no Jikan mentions.

I haven't heard anything conclusive one way or the other, but do not remove the image from 1000 Origami Cranes; we have Word of Eddie that that pic is fine, plus it's specifically commented to not pothole to Kn J, as is the example on the page.

edited 19th May '12 5:10:08 AM by Willbyr

We might also want to keep the pic on the Shana Clone page that includes Lotte as well — Lotte is one of Rie Kugimiya's Tiny Tyrannical Tsunderes.

edited 19th May '12 8:20:56 AM by TwoGunAngel

I haven't touched page pictures, and if there's an admin comment on an example, I leave it be as well. There are some other cases where I suppose we could leave a (non-wick) reference:

• Voice actor pages ("has played role X in this")
• The bit on the flame war page ("do not mention these shows here")

Should we keep/restore these bits?

edited 19th May '12 9:01:19 AM by jkbeta

Who the fuck thought putting references to us on Flame War is a good idea? I'm chainsawing that.

As for images, don't touch them. As long as they're SFW, they're fine. Just put a commented out note like the one on Gag Boobs.

Is it the images and admin-marked examples *only*, or are there other things to be kept?

PS: I think that flame war bit has been cut already...

edited 19th May '12 9:04:45 AM by jkbeta

I think this sets a dangerous precedent. There wasn't any discussion I recall of a "zap all mentions" policy. Will this apply only to pages that P5/admins declare are "not even possibly coming back," or will it apply to every page they cut, even mistakenly, under the content policy?

I think what we really need to do is just zap troublesome examples. That's ones that go into lolicon, or ones that sound like porn. Fanservice pages probably shouldn't have examples from these series for instance.

Yeah, I'd agree with that and say that this should probably be restricted to mentions on the romance tropes or sex tropes or rape tropes pages.

Ok, in that case I was somewhat over-zealous. Should I put the non-critical examples back?

Edit: On second thoughts, I will just go and do that.

edited 20th May '12 11:52:20 AM by jkbeta

Oh, ok, so we can talk about the Ferris wheel scene in Lotte? (a heartwarming talk on a ferris wheel is not lolicon to me, but you know me_

There's a Kn J example on Token Yuri Girls though. Too racy?

edited 20th May '12 12:35:12 PM by animeg3282

Ehh I believe we should get P5 or The Fast One's word on this.

Just for the record: I'm reverting most of my edits regarding these works, so don't be surprised if some (properly de-wicked) examples are coming back over the next hour our so. I'll post an after-action report later.

For my stance, the only problematic wicks are these that refer specifically to paedo-stuff, so entries like "Fanservice: <Pre-teen looking girl> had sex with <older man>" would have to go. On the other hand, deleting other wicks would probably do nothing to advance the purpose of the work page cuts.

Both of those don't have any of that, so you mean just delete references to panty shots and stuff,right?

Yes, but remember that it's not my policy.

After-action report for Kodomo no Jikan - part 1: Clear restores and clearly zappe examples

I restored the mentions on these pages, since they were clearly unproblematic:

Adult Fear, Anime Hair, Art Evolution, Badass Teacher, Brainy Brunette, Beautiful All Along, Broken Bird, Bishōnen, Blackmail, Bland-Name Product, Christmas Cake, Cram School, Creepy Child, Dysfunction Junction, Failed a Spot Check, The Glomp, Hime Cut, Hot Mom, Idiot Hair, Incurable Cough of Death, Intergenerational Friendship, In the Name of the Moon, Mugging the Monster, No Such Thing as Bad Publicity, Ojou, Overdrawn at the Blood Bank, Rapunzel Hair, The Three Faces of Eve, Tomokazu Sugita, Wacky Marriage Proposal

I also restored mentions on the following pages, since they were ok in context:

Gender Flip, Rule 63, Kissing Under the Influence (it's between adult characters, A Man Is Not A Virgin (since the man in question stays a virgin, this does not sound creepy).

I restored the following after a slight rewrite:

TearJerker.Anime, Cats Are Mean, one part of Innocent Innuendo

The following pages have their Kodomo no Jikan example still zapped since they describe explicit fanservice moments:

Bare Your Midriff (according to the description, this was because Rin wanted to seduce her teacher), Skinship Grope, Naked Apron, Erotic Eating, Thong of Shielding (states that a child character is going commando), Accidental Pervert (gives fairly explicit descriptions of how this happens to a teacher in regard to two 9 year olds)

The following examples are still zapped since the links or wicks in question don't exist anymore, making the example useless: Seinen, Sliding Scale Of Anime Obscurity, Crowning Music/Anime, Awesome/Anime

The example in Blush Sticker was a zero-context example and thus zapped.

The exmample in Nose Bleed explictly described how one of the girls reacted to the above Thong of Shielding moment and is thus still zapped.

Finally, labelling Rin as a Memetic Molester was done with the words "Rin once raped Pedobear". I think I can easily defend zapping this.

Next part: questionable examples

edited 20th May '12 1:50:57 PM by jkbeta

I think they should all be cut, but, as it is, that is up to the group to decide.

After-action report for Kodomo no Jikan - part 2: Questionable examples

There were several examples were I was not sure whether to restore or not. I'll split these up further into cases where a solution should be easy to reach, and examples where serious rewriting may be needed.

Easy cases:

- A mention of Rin on Pantheon.Love (as a follower of some god), probably ok

- Indirect Kiss: The example does not sound too bad (girl with a crush on Rin sees the teacher's taking of her drink as an indirect kiss, gets angry with teacher); in another work, this would be played for laughs. Restore?

- Incompatible Orientation: "Kuro Kagami of Kodomo No Jikan has a lesbian crush on Rin Kokonoe, who is straight. She also develops one for Sae Shirai, who is straight, 20 years older and a teacher at her school. She really needs to learn to pick them better." Sounds ok to me, but how far does the work go?

- Litte Miss Snarker: "To some extent, Kuro Kagami from Kodomo No Jikan". - is she or isn't she?

- Covert Pervert: "Kyouko Houin of Kodomo No Jikan gets off to Aoki showing some kids how to milk a cow (which shares her first name) during a class trip to a petting zoo. Bad time to not be wearing a bra, Houin-sensei..." - it's fanservice about adult characters, so it's not violating the "no pedo" policy. Re-add? Rewrite and add?

- Even the Girls Want Her: "Rin Kokonoe of Kodomo No Jikan. Kuro Kagami has a lesbian crush on her.". So far so good, but "even the girls want her" implies that boys want her as well - is this actually the case here, except for that creep of an uncle?

- Oniichan No Koto Nanka Zenzen Suki Ja Nai N Dakara Ne: "Speaking of Eri Kitamura it seems Yui has gotten a whole lot more perverted... And Rin... stays about the same, really." - keep?

- Necktie Leash: "In the Kodomo No Jikan manga, the second kiss between Kokonoe and Aoki happens this way. Emphasis on the "pulling", as Aoki didn't want anything to do with it." - keep? rewrite (how about "In Kodomo no Jikan, Rin forces Aoki to kiss her this way")?

- Wife Husbandry: The example itself is definitely ok; can we keep the formulation or should it be rewritten?

—> Reiji from Kodomo No Jikan sees his ward Rin as a replacement of her mother and his dead lover, Aki, and is counting down the days until she's of marriageable age. Rin herself is quite aware of this but remains loyal to him regardless, despite Aoki's efforts. Aoki did earn himself a Crowning Moment Of Awesome by calling Reiji out on it. Reiji's defense is that none of his advances so far were illegal — to which Aoki points out that by that logic, it's all right if he does the same. Reiji blanches.

- Zettai Ryouiki: "Rin Kokonoe in Kodomo No Jikan appears to do this intentionally to seduce her teacher, although it's never explicitly stated." - sounds ok to me. Keep?

- Guile Hero: Essentially the same case as Wife Husbandry

—> Daisuke Aoki is growing into this in Kodomo No Jikan. He shows his guile by saying he will be supervising both Rin and her guardian Reiji because they are both too dependent and stubborn to properly care for themselves. What makes this awesome? He knows full well he's abusing his authority and challenges Reiji to do something about it. And Reiji can't, since if he does, his Wife Husbandry plan will be revealed. Sweet!

- Innocent Innuendo, second example: "This is the primary source of humor in the Kodomo No Jikan anime, mostly due to excessive censorship." What do they mean by "excessive censorship"? This is quite ambiguous and probably not a statement of fact; if so, that's a strong accusation.

- Common Knowledge: This is probably ok, but might be a case of Fan Myopia - keep or zap?

—> Everyone knows that Kodomo No Jikan wasn't licensed in the United States because Zac Bertschy of Anime News Network took up arms in order to keep it that way. Except that's not really true. Vitriolic as he is towards moe and lolicon, Bertschy only posted scathing remarks about it. In reality, what killed off Kodomo No Jikan was Seaven Seas' inability to find a decent retailer for the series.

- The Jailbait Wait: Is this ok, or does it need a rewrite?

—> Both used straight and inverted in Kodomo No Jikan: Played straight in that Rin's guardian, Reiji, is patiently waiting for her to reach legal age so he can marry her (at least initially). Inverted in the anime (and only the first season) — in the end, Rin agrees to leave Aoki-sensei alone until she's old enough for him to accept her.

- Psycho Lesbian: I'm not sure if we should label an elementary school girl as a Psycho Lesbian, but the description seems to indicate this is actually the case (see below). Re-add?

—> Kuro Kagami from Kodomo No Jikan who is in the third grade. Initially, Kuro's "relationship" with Rin was rather warped, as she viewed the latter as little more than her personal plaything, applying things such as makeup and nail polish to her as if she were a living doll (and getting into trouble for it). While Kuro's attitude improved somewhat in the ensuing years, her friendship with Rin changed dramatically: the admiration and respect she developed for the strength of character that emerged in her friend eventually gave rise to a lesbian attraction. She is openly contemptuous of her teacher Aoki-sensei, mainly because he is Rin's (unwilling) object of affection, and often verbally — and sometimes even physically — abuses him. Kuro also eventually comes to idolize and develop something of a crush on Sae Shirai (a female teacher) possibly due to their similar personalities and temperaments.

- Coming of Age Story: These are probably okay, but may need a minor rewrite: "If you look past the "special" premise, Kodomo No Jikan is basically this." and, under late bloomer, "While Kodomo No Jikan is the story of Rin Kokonoe, her Christmas Cake teacher Shirai goes through this variant as well. (late bloomer)".

Cases where we should probably restore some bits and leave others out: - Ho Yay.Anime: The relationship between adults (" It's not hard to interpret some of Reiji's tsundere-ness toward Aoki as this, especially in the most recent chapters.") sounds ok, but I'd propose leaving the Ho Yay between the child characters out; as far as I can tell from the other examples, it's not just subtext anyway.

- Dude, She's Like in a Coma: How about trimming out the parts about the under-age characters? Or should we leave it all in?

—> Kodomo no Jikan: Houin—herself drunk—kisses a passed out Aoki. A few chapters later she can't stop worrying about it and imagines how bad it would look if their genders were swapped. In the same series, it is heavily implied that Rin kisses Aoki after he falls asleep during their class trip. At one point, Aoki discovers that Reiji has been doing this to Rin. This is apparently a bad habit of Boin-sensei Houin-sensei, since she does it again in the most recent chapter. [[spoiler:Except that she's too drunk to realize that she's actually kissing Aoki's sister...]

Cases where the example will probably need to be rewritten - No Periods, Period: I don't have the description handy (it's on the page history tab), but the old description sounded quite explicit. How about just stating this is averted here with relation to the late pre-pubescent/early pubsecent characters?

- Periphery Demographic: "Borderline Lolicon series Kodomo No Jikan has actually quite a few female fans, some of whom say they identify with one or more of the three main girls (let's not try and analyze that too hard). Keep in mind that it was created by a woman.". The "let's not try..." part sounds a bit antagonistic. Also, is the author really a woman? My information on that is somewhat conflicted.

- Digging Yourself Deeper: "In Kodomo No Jikan, Aoki does this, first making himself sound like a lolicon (to another teacher, who has a thing for him), then trying to explain that he's not, saying that breasts don't matter (she has really huge breasts, incidentally). Of course, it's kinda easy to do when trying to ask someone to tell a 9 year old to wear a bra.". The last sentence seems to be a huge example of It Makes Sense in Context or even Less Disturbing in Context, and the context is missing now.

- Just a Kid: "This is one of the ways Aoki dismisses Rin's (extremely sexual) affection in Kodomo No Jikan. Then she challenges him to pull on a ribbon on her skirt. Only it's not on her skirt, it's part of her panties, and makes them fall off. He realizes the only way she could have gotten them is Reiji, and that's what makes him start to wonder if Reiji is the reason Rin's the way she is (he is).". Seems to be a bit too explicit; do we really need to describe what Rin wears under her skirt?

- Attractive Bent-Gender: "Completely gender-reversed in Kodomo No Jikan: when Rin crossdresses as a boy, her classmate Kuro (who's in love with Rin, and immediately identifies the "new boy" as Rin) has a rather impressive nosebleed. And honestly, Rin does make a pretty good kid-Bishōnen." Is this ok or should we modify it?

Now, on to Lotte no Omocha.

edited 20th May '12 2:28:53 PM by jkbeta