Misused: Token Yuri Girls

I noticed this because of a small edit war popping up on the Sailor Moon tropes page, but this trope seems to be extremely badly used and unclear. The idea seems to be pointing out instances of Yuri couples used for mere fanservice outside of explicitly Yuri works. In practice, it's getting used for every single instance of a lesbian coupling ever.

This seems to create the Unfortunate Implication that lesbian couples, by their nature, cannot be part of a work except for fanservice. They're not people, they're props. I wouldn't argue that some works may use women like this, but in current practice, if a girl so much as thinks about ravishing another girl, she's fanservice and fanservice alone.

Oh, and the reason I kept pulling the Sailor Moon example of Haruka and Michiru? Well, on top of the fact the author explicitly stated she added them to the work to show that she believed in the validity of both hetero and homosexual love, they're not even the only characters in the franchise to fall under the LGBT umbrella. So I'd also add this trope in practice seems to be ignoring whether or not the couples in question are actually "token" at all.

Looking at the examples, it's just about if there's any yuri in it. Token doesn't feature into it, in any sense of the word. It's not for singular examples in a work, nor adding it for whatever shifty reason you may have. It's just yuri.

Also, what's the point in keeping it eastern only?

I believe it's like that because this spun out of the Schoolgirl Lesbians thread, right? I think they wanted to emphasize that this is something that appears in anime in a very particular pattern.

So is it a bad name then mixed with a misleading description?

Looking at the old YTTKW discussion, it has the same description implying that Japanese works featuring lesbian characters only include them strictly for fanservice regardless of whether the work is yuri or not. Even if the author of the work disagrees or other LGBT characters appear in the work.

I kinda bowed out of that project about halfway through, but I think without authorial intent it probably doesn't count. It's like having a Token Mini-Moe or your required tsundere in a harem lineup. It's something readily recognizable that shows up as fanservice. The relationship tends not to be very introspective or kind of ignores societal reaction and whatnot. At least, I think that's what they were going for.

Here's the thing - lesbians are only fanservice when their sole purpose is to be a prop.

An actual three-dimensional character isn't a prop, regardless of whether they're the main character or not.

This seems more and more like a really unclear trope that never got properly defined in the first place. I think there may be a trope of using gay characters as fanservice, but right now simply anyone expressing lesbian tendancies is getting a pretty insulting label slapped on them. The description and the page need to be tightened and cleaned up.

I make the YKTTW as a spinoff of the Schoolgirl Lesbians / "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship TRS thread [which is here, incidentally, and still going; input would be appreciated].

Here's the important part of the definition:

"Yuri-style lesbian relationships between secondary characters, outside of Yuri Genre works, to appeal to the Yuri Fan base."

This is a common feature of anime/manga which is unusual in Western works, and currently the Schoolgirl Lesbians and "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship pages are loaded down with Square Peg Round Trope examples of this type, showing that it is something that people are interested in pointing out.

There was a lot of debate in YKTTW surrounding the title; we wanted to make it clear that the trope did not cover characters in actual Yuri Genre series, hence the "token" part; there is no intention to exclude works that have other gay/lesbian/whatever characters too as long as the work is not Yuri Genre (or Queer Media, I suppose).

There is also no intention to imply that the characters are necessarily "props". What the characters do in the story depends in part on what kind of work they're in; some of the characters listed are indeed mainly fanservice characters, others are there to appeal to people who may be more interested in the relationship or the character herself. Some are both.

If that's not coming through then perhaps it needs a rewrite.

edited 16th May '12 10:29:32 AM by lebrel

Well, token is a bad word to describe that.

I also don't see how it's a pattern that's unique to eastern media when described as loosely as it is.

The secondary characters part isn't followed either. We have Konata and Kagami, Kirika and Mireille, Lisianthus and Kaede, and Vanille and Fang. I wouldn't classify those as secondary. And that's just the ones I recognise myself.

In short, we have a trope name, a description, and examples that don't match each other at all.

"Well, token is a bad word to describe that."

What would you suggest?

"The secondary characters part isn't followed either."

With the possible exception of Kirika and Mireille (I haven't seen Noir, but it sounds like Yuri In All But Name), those are ensemble-cast works. The focus isn't on the characters you name, or their relationship. If you can come up with a clearer way of describing that, have at it.

So, not so much secondary characters as secondary yuri romance, then?

Non Focus Yuri? Secondary Yuri Couple? Or just Yuri Romance with a tag that says to exclude examples from Yuri Genre works?

edited 16th May '12 11:24:27 AM by Feather7603

It's not always a requited love, so putting "romance" or "couple" in the name isn't very indicative. Yuri Girls has the advantage of matching Yaoi Guys, but people seemed not to like that one.

Wait, what are the "yuri tropes" that we're supposed to be looking for? This just seems to be a trope that says "lesbians in Japanese media". What is unique about this trope to Japanese media? And why does the description explicitly describe these characters as "fanservice" if its just meant to be a catch all to point out there are lesbians in a work?

I'm also not understanding the implication that only people who like yuri works would be interested in a show with lesbians in it.

edited 16th May '12 4:31:49 PM by Rebochan

Yuri tends to be idealized, all sugar and sweet, and sparkles. Lesbian romance tends to be raunchy and realistic. see Dykes To Watch Out For vs Yuri Yuri

"why does the description explicitly describe these characters as "fanservice""

It doesn't say that. It says that they can be for fanservice, or for Yuri Fan bait.

And although Yuri tropes aren't as rigid or well-established as Boys' Love tropes, there are still tropes involved: the tall, mature Onee-sama and the tomboyish neko, the Sempai/Kōhai relationship, Flower Motifs, the mysterious gauzy "world of girls" treatment (in male-targeted stuff), or the Takarazuka-esque Bifauxnen "girl prince" character (in shoujo). Very little actual yuri is based on realistic lesbians or real-life lesbian relationships, even less so for the added-value yuri-esque characters.

"I'm also not understanding the implication that only people who like yuri works would be interested in a show with lesbians in it."

Most of these characters are not just lesbians. They're yuri-style lesbians, using yuri tropes to appeal to the Yuri Fan base. Just like it's Yaoi Fangirls, not actual gay men, who are the target audience for Boys' Love and Yaoi Guys.

edited 16th May '12 4:40:40 PM by lebrel

Yes, but this isn't about that style of yuri. It's just about yuri. If there's a pattern to it above that, I don't see it.

There's nothing about Yuri tropes at all in this trope, and no requirement that the lesbians must follow them. There is nothing making them distinct at all that requires they be anime/Japanese only. In fact, none of the examples even point out what makes them so obviously "Yuri fan bait" and not simply lesbians.

I mean, seriously, are two lesbian women having a normal relationship instantly fan bait and not simply two lesbian women having a normal relationship? There's nothing in the page that explicitly points out certain character types that are unique to the Japanese yuri genre.

See, I'm pointing all these out because the trope is really, really vague.

"Yes, but this isn't about that style of yuri. It's just about yuri."

Yes, exactly. This trope requires yuri, but it doesn't require any one specific style of yuri (the tropes I mentioned fall into at least two incompatible types).

"There's nothing about Yuri tropes at all in this trope, and no requirement that the lesbians must follow them."

The trope is specifically "Yuri-style lesbian relationships"; those are the first four words on the page. So yes, there must be yuri tropes of some kind, and Western works do not count unless they are deliberately mimicking yuri.

Yuri Genre is an established genre (or group of genres, as there are substantial differences by target audience), it has a certain (sometimes mutually exclusive) set of tropes, it has an existing fan base (or set of bases), and creators and publishers cater to that/those base(s) by using said tropes. I'm not seeing why this is such a hard idea to convey.

"I mean, seriously, are two lesbian women having a normal relationship instantly fan bait and not simply two lesbian women having a normal relationship?"

Dude(ette), how much yuri actually involves realistic lesbian relationships (aside from the stuff aimed specifically at actual lesbians, and some of the more serious josei yuri)? I'm not lesbian, but I find it kind of hard to believe that your typical moeblob otaku-bait yuri characters (or genderbending shoujo yuri characters) are a realistic representation of "two lesbian women having a normal relationship". Isn't that the single biggest complaint Western readers have about yuri?

yeah, from what I can tell, yuri media don't strive to be accurate or realistic portrayals of lesbian relationships.

Honestly, I don't see how a significant majority of yuri relationship are unrealistic in ways that straight relationship aren't.

But if there's an actual style to yuri that's not applicable to western lesbian additions to stories, it needs to be written on the page. If it's just, "yuri, in eastern media, and not in yuri-specific works," then you have no definition of what those yuri tropes are, and just work on the assumption that an eastern work with a yuri relationship fits the trope while a western work doesn't.

"Honestly, I don't see how a significant majority of yuri relationship are unrealistic in ways that straight relationship aren't."

Eh, there's fat whacks of unrealistic-ness in anime/manga romance generally, but yuri has specific kinds of genre-specific unrealistic-ness laid on top of the romance unrealistic-ness.

"If it's just, "yuri, in eastern media, and not in yuri-specific works, " then you have no definition of what those yuri tropes are"

I think that the proper place to put descriptions of yuri are on the Yuri Genre page, which has a tropes list and some discussion of the stereotypes (which could use a touch of expansion, actually); duplicating that content seems unnecessary to me. We could explicitly point the reader to the Yuri Genre page for that information, but I'm assuming most people would be smart enough to figure that out for themselves. If you think we really need to do that, though...

Well, I still don't see any significance to whatever yuri standards there are in the examples. It's just works made in Asia with at least one lesbian person, and aren't explicitly in the Yuri Genre. That's the practical definition of the trope looking at the examples. I find that about as meaningful as the result of a pair of scissors.

The entire point of a trope is that it should stand on its own, though. There's nothing in Token Yuri Girls that explains why they are "Token" or why they are specifically examples of "yuri fan bait" and not just "a work with lesbians". Does every Western work with a gay character need a special category of just "there's a gay character here"? Now, we do have trope pages for specific types of gay characters, but they tend to be extremely well defined.

I feel like this is going in circles...

edited 17th May '12 11:44:24 PM by Rebochan

I don't think that yuri and lesbians are the same thing. Yuri is often just a bunch of cute teasing that people get upset about if it goes 'too far.'

I've never seen it be described as anything remotely like that.

edited 18th May '12 6:27:49 AM by Feather7603

It's just something I've personally noticed. It's possible that I just picked really bad yuri and my experiences kept me from seeking out more, but I do hear the same thing from other people: Yuri relationships are often shallower than their heterosexual counterparts.

Meh. I'm going to stay out of this one. Never mind.

edited 18th May '12 6:41:58 AM by Arha