Misused: All Myths Are True

Deadlock Clock: 1st Feb 2014 11:59:00 PM
Total posts: [273]
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Oh sure, that's fine.
227 StarSword2nd Jun 2013 03:38:10 PM from somewhere in deep space , Relationship Status: In denial
You are of Bajor.
*picks absently at loose thread*

EDIT: Dang formatting.

edited 2nd Jun '13 3:38:27 PM by StarSword

228 SeptimusHeap3rd Jun 2013 12:25:16 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I am planning to execute Noa's idea here as soon as I get time, which is hopefully soon too.
229 SeptimusHeap5th Jun 2013 10:52:58 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
OK, so I have done the great disambiguating, bringing the examples to the other tropes.

All that is left is: All Myths Are True. Are these examples a pattern worth YKTTW'ing, or just a jumble of things that would warrant only a disambiguation?
230 Nohbody5th Jun 2013 11:08:46 AM from Somewhere in Dixie , Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
I noticed that His Dark Materials is listed in both the normal AMAT and in Fantasy Kitchen Sink, as well as left on that sandbox page. I'm not really familiar with the series, though, so I have no idea which actually applies.
231 johnnye5th Jun 2013 12:16:34 PM from Brighton, UK , Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
There are a lot of examples of what I would give the working title of Grand Unifying Myth — works which put lots of different myths down to a single common cause, like vampires, trolls, ogres and werewolves all being demons, or all humanity's gods being dimension hopping aliens.
"We don't harm little girls in Dorne."
— Oberyn Martell
I see a few different patterns in that list, some of which might be able to be merged into a single trope:
  1. All in-universe myths are true. There are two subtypes that might have their own tropes already: a) all real-world religions are true, and b) all prophecies are true.
  2. All stories, at least in some particular category, are true, either because a) The Multiverse makes it so or b) it's a Massive Multiplayer Crossover setting.
  3. The most interesting potential trope: all myths or fantasy creatures are explained by something within the story. This is the Grand Unifying Myth mentioned above. A form of Doing In the Wizard, except not.
  4. One particular myth is true. I don't think this should count, or is really a trope, but some of these might fall into one of the others given more context.
Here's how I break down the examples, breaking out problematic examples below the main list:

Anime and Manga
  • Shaman King: 3
  • Devilman: 3
  • Guyver: 3
  • Spice and Wolf: Zero-Context Example
  • Yu Yu Hakusho: 4
  • Arago: 3
Comic Books
  • Wisdom: 1a, I guess, could be considered 4
  • The Eternals: 3
  • The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: 2b
  • Crisis on Infinite Earths: 2a
Fan Fiction
  • Cosmic Warriors: 4
  • The Number of the Beast: 2a
  • Harry Potter: ZCE, from what I know probably belongs in Fantasy Kitchen Sink, might be 1
  • One for the Morning Glory: ZCE, possibly 1 or 2b
  • Harold Shea: 2a
  • John C. Wright: 1a
  • The Dalemark Quartet: 1
  • Neil Gaiman: ZCE (it literally says X, Just...X)
  • Principia Discordia: Possibly 1, possibly 2, it's that kind of story
  • Out of Their Minds: ZCE
  • Discworld: ZCE
  • Dune: 1b
  • The Well of Ascension: 1b
  • Magic: The Gathering/Lord of the Wastes: Sorta 1
  • His Dark Materials: See above, seems to be 3
  • Young Wizards: 3
Live-Action TV
  • Quartermass: 3
Tabletop Games
  • Mage: the Awakening: 1 is probably the trope being subverted
  • Dungeons and Dragons/Eberron: 1
Video Games
  • The Elder Scrolls Oblivion: Maybe 1b if you really squint
  • Chrono Cross: ZCE, possibly an aversion to 1
Web Comics
  • Thunderstruck: Subversion of 1a
  • Abe Kroenen: Subversion of 4, which therefore might be considered a subversion of one of the others
  • Wayward Sons: 1a, sort of
Web Original
  • Tasakeru: 1 or 3
Western Animation
  • Roswell Conspiracies: 3

Special cases:
  • Sleeping Beauty: This is the opposite of the title, so I don't think it should count. See below.
  • Stranger in a Strange Land: This is basically one agnostic character. Probably shouldn't count.
  • Myths of Magic: Explicitly false.
  • The Elder Scrolls Morrowind: This is an "exception" where everyone has a different myth they tell and only one of them is true; Sleeping Beauty should be considered an exception of this type. Not sure what trope it's an exception to, though.
  • Fire Emblem: One particular myth turns out not to be true and a cover for a different myth. So, sorta 4?
  • The "Other" Example: Aversion of The Legend of Chekhov and inversion of one of the above, in that everything they encounter turns out to have an associated myth, followed by numerous myths turning out not quite to be true as is

edited 5th Jun '13 1:04:54 PM by MorganWick

233 SeptimusHeap5th Jun 2013 01:05:04 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Re Morgan Wick's distinctions:

1 sounds like A Mythology Is True, but for several myths(?). It also overlaps with Crossover Cosmology at times.

2, sounds also like an expanded A Mythology Is True.

3 may be something YKTTW-worthy.

4 is A Mythology Is True.

I wonder if having Myths Are True or somesuch as a supertrope woulod be desirable.
I just looked up what trope 1b is: Prophecies Are Always Right. However, all the examples in this list are Playing with a Trope, specifically some entity arranging the prophecies' existence in order to further their own ends (though The Elder Scrolls Oblivion remains confusing regardless). That may be YKTTW-worthy as well.

Given the existence of A Mythology Is True, you would expect All Myths Are True to be that But More So (assuming you consider "myth" and "mythology" to be equivalent terms), so basically some combination of 1, 1a, and 2b, maybe 2a as well.

edited 5th Jun '13 1:16:06 PM by MorganWick

235 SeptimusHeap5th Jun 2013 01:16:39 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
So in other words we have 2-3 potential tropes here?
236 Spark95th Jun 2013 10:35:38 PM from Castle Wulfenbach , Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Basically yes.
Special trousers. Very heroic.
237 StarSword6th Jun 2013 02:50:35 PM from somewhere in deep space , Relationship Status: In denial
You are of Bajor.
IIRC the only myths in Harry Potter are the Chamber of Secrets and the Deathly Hallows, both of which turn out to be true. Other than that it belongs on Fantasy Kitchen Sink.

EDIT: Ok, done editing now.

edited 6th Jun '13 2:55:02 PM by StarSword

238 StarSword7th Jun 2013 12:21:41 PM from somewhere in deep space , Relationship Status: In denial
You are of Bajor.
@Septimus: You said something earlier about making a disambiguation? Where'd you put it?
239 SeptimusHeap7th Jun 2013 12:28:05 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
All Myths Are True. That name is being read for too many things for it to make a good redirect.
240 SeptimusHeap9th Jul 2013 04:01:24 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
OK, I made a YKTTW for Grand Unifying Myth and removed its examples as well as the Zero Context Examples from the sandbox.

That said, we need to know what to do with the examples called 1,2 and 4 in @232. Any opinions?
241 SeptimusHeap10th Jul 2013 11:17:18 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Bumping again to get answers on ^:

Also, it seems we have the trope for 3 already: One Myth To Rule Them All, which is a badly named page.
242 johnnye10th Jul 2013 03:54:54 PM from Brighton, UK , Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
My thoughts;

  1. (a) seems like Legend Of Chekhov and (b) Prophecies Are Always Right
  2. (a) could be tropeable; I'm not so sure about (b)
  3. is One Myth To Rule Them All
  4. isn't really a trope.
"We don't harm little girls in Dorne."
— Oberyn Martell
243 SeptimusHeap10th Jul 2013 03:56:01 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
The YKTTW for 3 has a suggestion to merge it with One Myth...
244 johnnye10th Jul 2013 04:15:12 PM from Brighton, UK , Relationship Status: If it's you, it's okay
Not sure if it really counts as a merge, given they're already pretty much identical. But OMTRTA could do with a reworking, it's not very well described and has an awful name.
"We don't harm little girls in Dorne."
— Oberyn Martell
Thinking about it, I think the 1b examples wound up with this trope as a sort of "lite" form of One Myth To Rule Them All, in this case, One Myth To Explain All the Prophecies. (See my explanation above.)

Also, I think it's the generic 1 case that sounds like Legend Of Chekhov, and I suspect most of those aren't actually used as Chekhov's Guns, or Septimus would have moved them there.

edited 10th Jul '13 4:25:25 PM by MorganWick

246 SeptimusHeap11th Jul 2013 05:35:29 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
This thread was on the bottom. Anything keeping this from going?

edited 6th Sep '13 9:03:20 PM by MikuruFan

248 SeptimusHeap7th Sep 2013 12:36:57 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
I am waiting for the other thread to conclude.
249 SeptimusHeap9th Sep 2013 09:10:52 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
That thread is now concluded, so we can continue here. I still want to see some more agreement about where to move the examples from Sandbox.All Myths Are True.
250 SeptimusHeap28th Sep 2013 03:23:00 AM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
Can we please get more opinions on where the examples on All Myths Are True ought to go? I am taking out the Zero Context Entries and moving those which still fit Prophecies Are Always Right and One Myth to Explain Them All.

Page Action: All Myths Are True
14th Jun '12 5:40:04 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
All Myths Are True is being misused as "real world myths are used in a work", while it really is about a myth turning out to be true after mentioned in-universe.

Total posts: 273
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