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Guns on the moon
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Guns on the moon:

 26 Night, Tue, 1st May '12 4:36:02 PM from PSNS Intrepid Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Who you are does not matter.
Even so, you could still fire a significant number of rounds out of most guns before you burn the barrel even a space environment. (And they'll still shoot for a decent time after you burn the barrel, but with a loss of velocity and accuracy.) Several magazines, at the least.
"Let us look less to the sky to see what might fall; rather, let us look to each other...and rise."
You could have bulkier guns to have some sort of gel coolant, and then switch out the gel coolant while firing.

Shadowed Philosopher
Or, if you wanted to go that route, you could just have it water-cooled and mounted, which is simpler anyway. You'd lose some water through leakage, but the water that cools a machine gun isn't exposed to the outside anyway; you'd just have to pump it back into a tank or something. Of course, water-cooled guns aren't, as a class, very portable things; they're definitely in the 'mounted weapon' category.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
well i did have a trench war thing in my mind, maybe not WATER cooled since water is important on the moon, Mercury maybe?

What would the benefit of using a full auto or semi auto systems be as compared to say a bolt action.

I think a bolt action might be a bit more robust to abuse and getting dust in the thing but i would like your view on it.

Second what would the steps of cleaning a lunner weapon? given how ionized the dust is, I think i have to recheck the article, it may be hard as heck to keep you think clear. god knows NASA is having issues making probes and cameras that can work under those conditions for a long time. I think you would need to run a magnet over it, they did that during Apollo.

Or i'm over thinking this and should ignore the cleaning thing.

Shadowed Philosopher
I don't think cleaning it would be that difficult. Guns fire fine in huge deserts on Earth; Moon dust might be somewhat finer, but it can't be any more omnipresent.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
 31 Night, Wed, 2nd May '12 8:09:55 AM from PSNS Intrepid Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Who you are does not matter.
Less, I should think, it goes up and falls down again; there's no air to carry it around.
"Let us look less to the sky to see what might fall; rather, let us look to each other...and rise."
good point, that one issue solved.

There still that matter of semi auto VS bolt actions as compared to each other and the idea of a some kind of coolant for a machine gun,

edited 2nd May '12 11:00:43 AM by dragonkingofthestars

Shadowed Philosopher
There's no good reason to use bolt-action for any sort of actual combat, if I understand correctly. I know that semi-auto is not going to have any more troubles with working on the Moon than bolt-action would, except for the heat-dissipation problem which is made slightly worse just by the fact that you can fire a semi-auto faster.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
 34 Clever Pun, Wed, 2nd May '12 4:09:07 PM from Monterey, California Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Occasionally erudite, often ignorant
If we're discussing hypothetical technology, then you could make a standard lever-action or semit-auto firearm out of a more heat conductive material, like titanium or ceramic. Titanium would be expensive and lunar dust would eat through ceramic though, just for two problems.

edited 2nd May '12 4:09:28 PM by CleverPun

Shadowed Philosopher
Greater heat conductivity would help to spread the heat out around the entirety of the weapon, so the barrel wouldn't melt as fast, but it wouldn't help with the overall heat-dissipation problem. For that you'd need either radiators or a coolant system.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
 36 Night, Wed, 2nd May '12 5:14:48 PM from PSNS Intrepid Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Who you are does not matter.
To be honest, I have no idea what we could do with a modern effort at a cooled weapon. The truth is we really don't make them in a size smaller than a tank main gun anymore. It might well be possible to provide a coolant to something the size of a PDW and keep it manageable now.

"Let us look less to the sky to see what might fall; rather, let us look to each other...and rise."
 37 Major Tom, Wed, 2nd May '12 5:19:15 PM Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
There's no good reason to use bolt-action for any sort of actual combat, if I understand correctly.

At ranges beyond 300 meters the further you are the more advantageous the bolt action rifle becomes.

It's the reason why in Afghanistan where combat routinely passed the 500 meters mark one of the worst weapons to be up against were World War One-era Lee Enfields. If hadjis over there had decent aimed accuracy our troops with their M-16s and M-4s would be getting shot to pieces.

Secondly, the bolt action has superior range and accuracy every time. Additionally given the lack of wind and lower gravity on the Moon, combat won't be taking place there at Vietnam-era 100 meters or less bullshit. It's possible you'll have sight and firing ranges measured in kilometers with standard infantry weapons. Which means at that kind of situation there's not a semi-auto in the world below .50 caliber that can compare to a bolt action rifle in range, accuracy or stopping power.
Endless Conflict: Every war ends in time, even supposedly this one.
Shadowed Philosopher
Hmm. I'm tempted to say that that's simply a matter of the mechanics of existing guns. Is there something about semiauto that actually reduces the range/accuracy of the weapon, or is it just that the semiauto guns we have aren't particularly good there anyway?
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
 39 Major Tom, Wed, 2nd May '12 5:35:33 PM Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
Semi-autos and automatics (well most of them anyways) drill holes in the barrel to vent gas to actuate the action. What do you think happens to the bullet when it hits that hole as it leaves the gun? It wobbles or deforms ever so slightly that it degrades accuracy by a measurable amount. In many situations (machine guns, full caliber rifles like the FAL or Garand) this isn't particularly noticeable as the ranges and platforms allow for the shooter to still hit the target (machine guns more by sheer volume of fire). However go to extreme ranges (e.g. 800+ meters) and what was just a simple .001 minute of arc difference between a bolt action rifle and a semi-auto turns into one rifle still hitting the target and the other missing by 30 cm.

Also, most automatics have shorter barrels than their bolt action counterparts. Remember at the time, the M1903 Springfield's barrel length of 24 inches was considered carbine length. (Nowadays it's really hard to find a not-vintage weapon with a barrel that long.) Today the M-16 has a 20 inch barrel and that's often considered too long for things like firing from vehicles or extreme close range fighting like that of Urban Warfare.

On Earth in the magic 200-500 meter range the effects aren't significant enough in typical infantry combat for any advantage in terms of bolt action rifles. (In ambush, sniper, or marksman roles they are to be more feared and respected than machine guns. A good shooter in any of those roles only needs that one shot.)
Endless Conflict: Every war ends in time, even supposedly this one.
Shadowed Philosopher
Huh. I've never been familiar with the mechanics of semi-autos, but for some reason I always assumed that the actuating mechanism was at the back behind the chamber. Oh, well.

Yeah, I could believe that combat on the Moon would take place at longer ranges. Really, though, there's no reason for combat on the Moon to involve any actual sophonts fighting whatsoever; fighting in a space suit is bloody stupid. I'd expect it rather to involve a lot of drones and autonomous rovers, with maybe the occasional human controller in an armored tank or whichever.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
 41 Major Tom, Wed, 2nd May '12 6:27:09 PM Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Eye'm the cutest!
but for some reason I always assumed that the actuating mechanism was at the back behind the chamber.

A few types of automatic operation do just that. (Though chamber/gas pressure is still fucked compared to a bolt action) Recoil (used mainly in submachineguns and old design machine guns like the Browning .50 cal or the Vickers), and blowback (H&K G3 used by the Bundeswehr most prominently) are the two most common.
Endless Conflict: Every war ends in time, even supposedly this one.
ok, i think i have a idea how this is going to work.

Standard foot trooper will have a bolt action rifle, nice and simple to make.

his uniform will be a be a gray, dirty white, and dark gray camouflage space active suit. (wiki l ink here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_activity_suit basically a skin tight space suit.)

helmet will be vaguely gas mask shaped with bigger eye holes.

There Foes, will be the auto miners of there earth side cold war rivals while therethere side just sent political dissidents and criminals as far as they could, the moon.

I'll likely set up a second thread about the setting a bit more.

Thanks for the help guys, I'll get to work on the sucker soon.

 43 Archereon, Fri, 4th May '12 4:52:13 AM from Everywhere.
Ave Imperator
[up] ...Why would people do that? Do you realize how expensive space travel is?

Cheaper and easier to just execute all their political prisoners and major criminals. Or lock them up for life.
This is a signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
true! but if you need something from the moon any way. (like helium three) you may as well send people you don't like

Shadowed Philosopher
Moon-as-penal-colony does make some sense, primarily if you want Moon-based endeavors (mining, infrastructure, etc.) but can't get voluntary colonists. It also, however, kind of shoots down the war-on-the-Moon idea; whoever controls the resource infrastructure (air, power, water) will have to win any combat in the long term, and anyone with a sufficiently powerful bomb can MAD the whole colony. So I can't think of a scenario in which you'd actually have people out on the surface in space suits with guns; that's just very backward to how combat would actually have to work.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
Did i mention the earth based atomic apocalypse? these guys are on there own.

Ok, (check notes, makes sure there in order) this is the internet, so time to put my ideas to the trial of fire and see if they work.

so, flame away, let see what forged.

Subject: can guys live on the moon with no support from earth, I am 90% i have this figured out, but best put it before the internet.

edited 5th May '12 1:01:43 AM by dragonkingofthestars

With no support on the moon that is, I presume, completely not terraformed in anyway?

You'll have to come up with a system for food, clean water, some level of industry (which if they have no support from earth, that bolt action rifle sounds a lot better), entertainment and hopefully enough of both sexes to procreate without massive inbreeding.

I already haved

oxygen from ice deposits, Iron from luna dust, (Reference:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/09/080924191552.htm key line:Luckily, lunar dust is also susceptible to magnets. Tiny specks of metallic iron (Fe0) are embedded in each dust particles glassy shell.)

CO 2 recycling from plants grown in luna soil fed with mined minerals such as phosphorus, (Reference: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7351437.stm: key line:An Esa-linked team has shown that marigolds can grow in crushed rock very like the lunar surface, with no need for plant food. Reference two:http://www.astrobio.net/exclusive/3569/greening-the-moon-and-mars key lines:In fact, one study found that germinated seedlings and plant cultures seemed to enjoy nutritional benefits from the lunar samples. The lunar dust and regolith contained certain elements useful for plant growth, such as iron, magnesium and manganese, even if it mostly lacked necessary elements such as nitrogen, phosphorus, sulfur and potassium.)

Walls built from moon bricks (reference:http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/01/22/moon-brick-igloo.html key line:Astronauts living on the moon could someday use such a formula to construct an interlocking, virtually indestructible dome-shaped home.) and dug into tunnel walls

Power for the Lunnar dust Smelters from solar panels, metals mined from the surface of the moon: (note: current thoery states the moon was formed from a planet impacting the earth, therefore it makes sense that the moon would have metals we can get on earth on it, like copper, and tin, we just have not noticed because we only stayed for a few minutes.)

as for the, people, thing. Ok, i'll put this blunt.

Life sucks.

They live short (25 or so) lives before cancer from both solar radiation and cosmic rays kills them, or silicosis does, (reference http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2005/22apr_dontinhale/)

They have entertainment and such, but its a hard, hard life.

Shadowed Philosopher
Re: living on the Moon without support...oxygen is abundant in the lunar regolith, so no need to go to ice for that. You can get metals and such as well. Power is cheap in outer space due to solar panels, but I'm not sure you can find the necessary silicon on the Moon, so you might be hurting for new ones. What'll really hurt you, though, is running out of carbon, nitrogen, chlorine, phosphorous; all those necessary trace elements that don't really show up on the Moon but are integral parts of biological systems. You'd pretty much have to get them from somewhere, and that means space travel. Asteroids would do, if you found one in a close-crossing orbit and managed to snag it. In the long run, though, that's going to be really really hard to sustain.

Also re: cancer, only an idiot would set things up so that people would live long-term on the surface, even in habitats. You'd build underground specifically to avoid that.
Shinigan (Naruto fanfic)
point one: minerals. I'm sure they exist, if not in all the samples we've seen. remember we've only looked at a few pounds of moon dirt, it likely in depots in mountains or something. may not be very common (compared to the earth) but its there. Infact now that i think of it, has to be under ground. With no geological or biological active to mix the crust up all those minerals are likely locked in the lunar rock under ground, hard to get to be sure but you can do it.

as for the radiation thing. you right, but you HAVE to have a part built exposed to the surface for plants and to service the panels, remember moon dust is abrasive like nothing else, Quote:During the Apollo 17 mission, for example, crewmembers Harrison Jack Schmitt and Gene Cernan had trouble moving their arms during moonwalks because dust had gummed up the joints. The dust was so abrasive that it actually wore through three layers of Kevlar-like material on Jacks boot, Taylor says.

So during farming and maintenance you going to get exposed, a lot.

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