Ambiguous Name: World Map

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I have never seen the specific term World Map used for anything other than videogames.
Well, one use of maps is in Travel Montage, or the Indiana Jones travel map. Often but not always features a map.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
World Map is the pre-existing term for the map screen in video games. As far as I know it's not commonly used in reference to any non-videogame trope, not even for Tabletop Game maps. There are certainly tropes about maps, and tropes about maps of worlds, but nobody would refer to any of them as a "World Map". Likelihood of misuse should be very low.

edited 25th Apr '12 7:15:45 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Dragon Writer
...Not to mention that I scanned every last link to this article (even multiple links from the same page) and found virtually no usage of the term outside of videogames. The wiki collective may be using the term more broadly than the definition stated on the page, but it is using it only for videogame contexts.

So proposing a videogame-specific name just to make "World Map" a medium-independent term is a solution needing a problem.

edited 26th Apr '12 8:59:24 AM by Stratadrake

I have never seen the specific term World Map used for anything other than videogames.

Are people really spending so much time on videogames they are oblivious to how the term is used by the rest of the world?

A world map is a map of the surface of the Earth, which may be made using any of a number of different map projections. A map projection is any method of representing the surface of a sphere or other three-dimensional body on a plane. Maps of the world are often either 'political' or 'physical'. The most important purpose of the political map is to show territorial borders; the purpose of the physical map is to show features of geography such as mountains, soil type or land use. Geological maps show not only the physical surface, but characteristics of the underlying rock, fault lines, and subsurface structures.

Google search result

Google Image Search Result

The term "World Map" is a preexisting term for any map of a world. If you want to make this videogame specific, change the name to "Video Game World Map"

edited 27th Apr '12 1:00:47 PM by Catbert

31 SeptimusHeap27th Apr 2012 02:25:46 PM from Laniakea , Relationship Status: Mu
[up]I think they were addressing the on-site usage. I wonder what the misuse rate in inbounds is.
[up][up] If you do a search for usage in context you'll find that it is clearly a pre-existing term for the trope. [1] [2] [3] [4]

As far as I know there is no other, non-videogame trope that the term could be confused for.

edited 27th Apr '12 4:47:35 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Look, I'm not trying to say videogames don't use the term "World Map" for maps of the world

I'm trying to say everybody uses the term "World Map" for maps of the world. Because, that is what you call maps of the world, whether you are talking a video game, a book, a website, or anything else with a map of the world. It isn't a term for a "trope". It is just basic English.

Your argument is like saying we can make a video game only article called "Rabbit" because videogames use the term "Rabbit" to describe lagomoprhs.

edited 27th Apr '12 5:05:47 PM by Catbert

Nobody talks about maps of the world. Nobody cares about maps of the world. Nobody expects us to have a page about maps of the world. They're not relevant to fiction. There's zero risk of confusion. No reason not to use the pre-existing term for the trope.

We don't have a Rabbit page, but we do have a Mole page and a Duck! page and a Bear page and you'll notice none of them are about cute woodland creatures.

edited 27th Apr '12 6:18:10 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Nobody talks about maps of the world. Nobody cares about maps of the world.

What an utterly false and inexplicable statement. If no one talks about and cares about world maps, why do so many people make them, buy them, and use them on a regular basis?

Nobody expects us to have a page about maps of the world. They're not relevant to fiction.

They are quite revelevent to fiction. Many works use maps of the world, ranging from works showing fictional maps of fictional worlds, to works showing maps of the world showing fictional alternative histories or fictional futures of real worlds, to maps showing where in the real world fictional events take place. Many games other then video games also use world maps. Risk comes to mind.

There's zero risk of confusion. No reason not to use the pre-existing term for the trope.

It is the same reason why we've decided not to have a trope called will, but instead split it up into types and ways that wills were used in fiction, and name them with a greater degree of specificity. It is the same reason that Fantasy World Map was named with the modifier "Fantasy" to refer to a specific type of world map used in a specific context, even though if you look at an atlas or in-book map for a fantasy novel, it isn't going to say "Fantasy World Map" but "Map of the World", "World Map", "Map of [name of world]" etc. It is the same reason people kept point out that The Chamberlain sounds like it refers to the office of chamberlain.

Now, I suppose if we were a videogame only wiki we could get away with that sort of usage.

If we were a Runescape wiki we could get away with defining a world map as refering to only the scrolling map of the entire surface of Gielinor. However, we aren't a videogame only wiki. We are a wiki that covers all mediums, not just videogames but even, say, Non-Fiction Literature.

You yourself demonstrated that the only way on a Google search to narrow down the search to get the specific type world map you are talking about is to add modifiers to the search beyond "World Map"? Why the strong resistance to adding a simple modifier like "Videogame" to the name?

We don't have a Rabbit page, but we do have a Mole page and a Duck! page and a Bear page and you'll notice none of them are about cute woodland creatures.

We have Rascally Rabbit. No where do we define it as a trickster rabbit in western animation, because that would be just plain silly because trickster rabbits are not confined to western animation.

We do not have Mole. We have The Mole. Also, we are using one of the standard dictionary definitions of the term "mole". No where in any dictionary or encyclopedia will you see "World Map" defined as something that is only found in videogames.

We do not have Bear. We have The Bear. Also, "bear" has as one of its slang definitions something that means solely what the trope describes.

The same type of thing can not be said of "World Map". There is no slang, dictionary or encyclopedia definition anywhere outside of this site, not even in the searches you give, that defines "World Map" as being something exclusive to video games. World Maps are something that are found in videogames, not something that originated in videogames, are exclusive to videogames, or are most commonly associated with videogames.

edited 27th Apr '12 7:59:34 PM by Catbert

[up][up]How can you claim there is zero risk of confusion when there is at least a 10% error percentage on the wick check?

Also, the examples you mentioned aren't titled Bear, or Mole. They're The Bear and The Mole, to make it clear it's not about the animal. The latter is probably even used for it's more commonly used meaning. Duck!, on the other hand, is about the animal, and how people confused the verb for the noun, or vice versa.

Sure, the term World Map is used exactly for what the trope is, so it's a pre-existing term. It's also a pre-existing terms for other things, so that alone is not an argument that holds water.

Not saying I necessarily disagree with your intent, but your arguments could use some improvements.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
How can you claim there is zero risk of confusion when there is at least a 10% error percentage on the wick check?
Hmm? Stratadrake just checked every wick and none of them are mistaking it for the topic of the Wikipedia article in question.

I mean I could do the whole point-by-point-response thing but that's a pain in the neck. (I'm not really interested in arguing about things on the internet. tongue) The point is we really don't need to worry about people coming to the page and being surprised to find out that it doesn't mention Robinson Projections.

edited 27th Apr '12 8:38:03 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
[up]Then I misunderstood you.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.
I never said that an article about world maps should necessarily be about Robinson Projections. Stop straw manning. My point is that an article about world maps should be about world maps.

No one has has provided a reason why the term "World Map" should be exclusive to a single specific medium. World maps is a term that is used in video games only by video games because video games use it to mean the exact same thing that the term means in plain ordinary English, no more, no less. There is absolutly no one outside this wiki that defines it as being something that exclusively applies to videogames.

We don't treat The Hero, Mooks, BFG, Bonus Material or pretty much anything else I can think of as being "Video game only" tropes just because they are pre-existing terms for tropes that happen to be used by video games. A world map is a trope that happens to be used by video games. They aren't something exclusive to video games or even something that originate in video games.


Now, I'm not necessarily saying that we should have a trope page called World Map.

What I'm thinking is something more like this:

  • Setting Map: Supertrope for maps added in order to provide a visual reference for the reader/player/watcher to better understand the events of the story, whether it be a map of the whole world (real or fictional world) or a map of a single room or building, such as can be seen in this ''Negima'' chapter.
    • Fantasy World Map: As it is named and defined right now, it theoretically should be confined to only fantasy, and includes maps that are not maps of the entire world. Is there pressing reason to do this? Perhaps, but where do we include science fiction world maps, which are pretty much the same concept?
    • Game Map: Supertrope for maps as the playable area in any for any type of game, whether it be "video" or "table top".
    • Other subtropes if needed.

edited 28th Apr '12 3:26:29 AM by Catbert

Dragon Writer
According to the official reasons on When To Rename A Trope, the current name is (1) working (people are indeed only linking it in videogame-specific contexts), and (2) not obviously misused (sure there's a bunch of Zero-Context Example to be fixed, but that's not misuse), much less (3) getting any in-wiki use for the definition you are proposing.

But hey, if you want to put it to an official vote, I've got PA and SP crowners drafted for that already.

edited 28th Apr '12 8:57:49 AM by Stratadrake

Given that we are already discussing renaming the current trope to something more indicative because of misuse for examples that do not fit its current definition, and creating an entirely new supertrope for the general use of world maps in videogames, I see no reason not to come up with a new name for the new trope.

You started the discussion by saying "This name is too broad for the trope defined therein." The same will continue to be true with a new trope if that new trope is simply named "World Map" yet is limited to the use of world maps in video games.

Besides, I'm not proposing any definition at all for a trope called "World Map". See [up][up] for what I am proposing.

edited 28th Apr '12 8:50:52 AM by Catbert

I'm all for using preexisting names whenever possible, for the convenience of casual readers who will be more familiar with those preexisting names than anything we come up with.
Preexisting terms should not be used for a meaning that is dramatically narrower than what the preexisting term actually means outside of this wiki. We don't define The Hero or Player Character as something exclusive to video games even though the terms are used by video games. There is no logical reason any thing else should have a non-medium specific name when it describes a medium specific concept.

No one defines "world map" as something that is exclusive to video games. Therefor, as with Fantasy World Map, it would be logical to add a modifier so that the term that is specific to the exact usage of "world map" that we want the new supertrope to reflect.

BTW, how would the following article fit into the grand scheme of video game map classification?

Also, going back to something Shimaspawn said earlier:

Fantasy World Map is that trope. It's a type of paratext and much much much rarer than the video game version.

Fantasy World Maps are exclusively limited to high fantasy settings with entirely invented world, under the current definition, though they do not require that the map encompass the entire world. It is also a perfect illustration of why specific types of world maps should have a modifier.

We also have a big gap in that we have no general trope for a Setting Map. As it is right now, maps used in, say, Historical Fiction, Science Fiction, or military fiction (to name several categories where I've seen a fair number of works that use maps) have no associated trope.

edited 29th Apr '12 12:30:37 AM by Catbert

It's not dramatically narrower. The term "World Map" isn't commonly used to discuss other mediums besides video games. Its only other use is to talk about real-world maps of Earth—which we don't really care about here.

Also, I don't think Fantasy World Map is supposed to be parsed as Fantasy World Map. Pretty sure it's Fantasy World Map. It's not actually a snowclone. The description says "map" and "fantasy world" all over the place, but never "world map".

Anyway, I think we're probably ready for a crowner, yes. Options:

That sound about right?
Rhymes with "Protracted."
Maps are no more "Chairs" than Speech Bubbles. They are things that intentionally included by the creators to communicate certain information about the story. The fact that they are common and tend to follow similar conventions makes them not a chair, but rather broad supertrope.

The term "world map" can and is used to for any map of a world in any medium. However, my proposal is not to expand World Map to cover any map of any world, but to:

  • Come up with a name that describes the specific type of video game map that the current trope describes.
  • Create a Video Game World Map trope to that which discuss world maps in video games. Among other things, this trope can include the information currently found in part 1 of Video Game Geography to describe different mechanics video games use for dealing with world maps.
  • Create a Game Map parent trope to that that covers any type of map used as a playable area for a game.
  • Create a Setting Map trope to discuss any inclusion of a map by the creator to communicate information about the setting of the story.

In my mind, such an arrangement would be a more logical, complete, hierarchical classification scheme than what we currently have. It would also allow for easy creation and placement of any additional subtropes in the map category.

The only pressing reason I can think of to not create a logical heirachy of specifically named map related tropes is because we (and not anyone else in the world) have been using World Map to mean just video game world maps for some time now. However, at 137 wick and 10 inbounds, this isn't exactly a trope of legend that has been deeply ingrained into trope conscious. Names with far greater usage and no demonstrable misuse have been tweaked for the sake of clarity before.

Besides, Video Game World Map would not be a rename for the current trope, therefore arguments saying that it doesn't meet the guidelines for renaming aren't really relevant, because we are talking about creating a brand new trope, not renaming an old trope.

The old trope currently described does meet the standard for renaming to something that describes the specific type of Video Game World Map that the description addresses because we've already demonstratrated that it has been misused for other types of Video Game World Map.

In conclusion, the issue here isn't "Rename or no" to a single trope. The issue is several layers worth of missing supertropes that need to be created, with brand new names.

edited 29th Apr '12 6:07:38 AM by Catbert

The term "world map" can and is used to for any map of a world in any medium.
In other mediums they just say "Map". Note how Google search results for works with a Fantasy World Map show video game adaptations as the top hits: [1], [2], [3]

Note also the absence of non-videogame usage in the wicks or inbounds. And that there is misuse, but it's people actively wanting to use the term to refer to other kinds of map screens in video games (because that's the pre-existing term).

edited 29th Apr '12 11:46:39 AM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
Dragon Writer
@Catbert: Long story short, in your proposal, what happens to "World Map" (the wikiword)?

edited 30th Apr '12 10:00:41 PM by Stratadrake

48 shimaspawn30th Apr 2012 10:01:11 PM from Here and Now , Relationship Status: In your bunk
Renaming World Map Video Game World Map violates conciseness and clarity rules.

It makes it longer at the expense of sacrificing a clear and pre-existing term that isn't seeing misuse for works outside of video games. This will inhibit use and make it harder for users who are new to the wiki and expect to see the pre-existing term. It also makes it sound like it's going to be something different than World Map because we're not using the pre-existing term. This will confuse users when they see it and cause both misuse and underuse.

And all of that is ignoring the fact that the phrase itself parses badly. Video Game World is a pre-existing term for a level in a video game which means that the title can be parsed as being a level map, not a map of everything. An ambiguity the current title lacks.

Teal deer: It would be bad for the wiki and goes against all our standards for trope names.

edited 30th Apr '12 10:13:14 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
World Map can either be a redirect to the new trope about world maps in videogames or a disambiguation page for Fantasy World Map and new video game trope.

This will inhibit use and make it harder for users who are new to the wiki and expect to see the pre-existing term

It is using pre-existing terms for something other than what they mean that creates confusion and makes things hard for new readers. No one outside this wiki thinks that "World Map" is a term that only refers to world maps in video games. We would also be retaining the "World Map" as part of their name so anyone looking just for it using just two words will still be able to find it with no problems.

To simply call something a "World Map" when you are not refering to all World Maps violates clarity because you are not saying what type of world map you are talking about. You are giving the false impression that the trope refers to something much broader than it really is.

One way or another, when I have more time latter and I finish the other projects I want to get done first, I will YKTTW Setting Map on my own initiative in order to fill in the Missing Super Trope.

edited 1st May '12 5:51:13 AM by Catbert

If there's going to be a rename, it has to be one that has a chance of preventing the current misuse. The Video Game part is not the problem here, so adding that would more likely than not have a negative influence.
The Internet misuses, abuses, and overuses everything.

Alternative Titles: World Map
1st May '12 9:15:27 PM
Vote up names you like, vote down names you don't. Whether or not the title will actually be changed is determined with a different kind of crowner (the Single Proposition crowner). This one just collects and ranks alternative titles.
At issue:
New title brainstorming for "depiction of a Video Game setting map that allows free player exploration between discrete levels/areas" (e.g. Final Fantasy-style world maps; current definition of "World Map")

Total posts: 159
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