Note: If a newly launched trope was already given a No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only designation while it was being drafted on the Trope Launch Pad, additions to the proper index do not need to go through this thread. Instead, simply ask the mods to add the trope via this thread
.
This is the thread to report tropes with problematic Real Life sections.
Common problems include:
- Conversation on the Main Page
- Flame Bait
- Squicky content
- Impossible in Real Life
Real Life sections on the wiki are kept as long as they don't become a problem. If you find an article with such problems, report it here. Please note that the purpose of this thread is to clean up and maintain real life sections, not raze them. Cutting should be treated as a last resort, so please only suggest cutting RL sections or a subset thereof you think the examples in question are completely unsalvageable.
If historical RL examples are not causing any problems, consider whether it would be better to propose a No Recent Examples, Please! (via this forum thread) for RL instead of NRLEP. If RL examples are causing problems only for certain subjects, consider whether a Limited Real Life Examples Only restriction would be preferable to NRLEP.
If you think a trope should be No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only, then this thread is the place to discuss it. However, please check Keep Real Life Examples first to see if it has already been brought up in the past. If not, state the reasons and add it to the crowner.
Before adding to the crowner:
- The trope should be proposed in the thread, along with reasons for why a crowner is necessary instead of a cleanup.
- There must be support from others in thread.
- Any objections should be addressed.
- Allow a minimum of 24 hours for discussion.
When adding to the crowner:
- Be sure to add the trope name, a link to where the discussion started, the reasons for crownering, whether the restriction being proposed is NRLEP or LRLEO (and in the latter case, which subject(s) the restriction would be for), and the date added.
- Announce in thread that you are adding the item.
- An ATT advert should be made as well (batch items together if more than one trope goes up in a day).
In order for a crowner to pass:
- Must have been up for a minimum of a week
- There must be a 2:1 ratio
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple extra days to see if any more votes come in
- Once passed, tropes must be indexed on the appropriate NRLEP index
- Should the vote fail, the trope should be indexed on KRLE page
Sex Tropes, Rape and Sexual Harassment Tropes, and Morality Tropes are banned from having RL sections so tropes under those indexes don't need crowner vote.
Crowner entries that have already been called will have "(CLOSED)" appended to them — and are no longer open for discussion.
After bringing up a trope for discussion, please wait at least a day for feedback before adding it to the crowner.
NRLEP tag:
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
LRLEO tag:
%%The following restrictions apply: [list restriction(s) here]
%%https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13350380440A15238800
Notes:
- This thread is not for general discussion regarding policies for Real Life sections or crowners. Please take those conversations to this Wiki Talk thread.
- Do not try to overturn previous No Real Life Examples, Please! or Limited Real Life Examples Only decisions without a convincing argument.
- As mentioned here, the consensus is that NRLEP warnings in trope page descriptions can use bold text so that they stand out.
- The [[noreallife]] tag doesn't currently work. This is a deprecated tag that was introduced many years ago — originally, it would have displayed a NRLEP warning banner when you edited the page. However, there's been some staff conversation (Feb 2024) about what a new technical solution might look like, so we'd advise against deleting these from pages, at least until we have a decision as to whether it'll be fixed or replaced.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 8th 2024 at 10:49:13 AM
Oversized Garden Ornament
In the case of Pooping Food, I don't think squickiness is enough cause to make it NRLEP - if some examples are excessively squicky, those examples should be removed or rewritten. I think the crucial issue is whether the trope description makes it impossible in RL - I think it does, so I voted "yes" for that reason.
No, the other one.
The closest to "squicky" we've had as real arguments that I can remember is probably something like "tasteless", which goes for detailing severe injuries or deaths. Doesn't apply here.
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Blapper of Water
Is it okay to take "Squicky" and "possibly squicky" off the crowner options? Not everybody reads the comments before voting and might vote based on whether they like squickiness (which is to say that they'll probably vote to make it NRLEP).
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
No, the other one.
IMO, yes. Those aren't arguments we should consider.
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Nice Job Fixing It, Villain has always been in the list, only that it was in "Morality Tropes".
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
RE Pooping Food, I don't think "probably impossible" ought to be in the description of the crowner option, given that at least one of the examples that have been suggested in the TLP draft's comments (the one involving cecotropes) is about an animal excreting from its intestines something that's actually edible (at least for itself; I doubt any species outside the relevant taxonomic family would find it edible).
edited 13th Oct '17 4:17:13 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
No, the other one.
To me, "probably impossible" has the same meaning as "probably possible", which means it's an automatic downvote.
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Oversized Garden Ornament
"Probably impossible" is weasel-wording in a rather bad way. Either it's impossible or not, and if we can't agree whether the trope is possible or not I'd say it's too early to vote on that ground.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
We can't agree on whether or not it's possible without first agreeing on a single interpretation of the trope. So far it seems the pro and anti camps are working with mutually incompatible interpretations, which is probably not helped by how the description is written. That being said, I've said it once before in the Peggy Sue TRS, and I say it again: An article's description is most decidedly not holy writ; we've had many cases in the past where part of or even the entirety of a description was proven to be badly written and it had to be overhauled.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Oversized Garden Ornament
Trope descriptions are not holy scripture or set in stone, that is true, but on the other hand we may be skating on thin ice if we start reinterpreting tropes willy-nilly.
But I think we should get back to the problem at hand: are the RL examples of Pooping Food a problem? If they constitute a problem, would it be enough to remove misuse and maybe rewrite squicky examples? In that case, I can't see why we need to make it NRLEP to start with.
edited 13th Oct '17 7:12:21 AM by GnomeTitan
Blapper of Water
Something influencing my vote here is that we were just criticized by mods that we're too eager to NRLEP tropes. So, I'm being more cautious than I otherwise may have been in the past.
The way I see it, we have a trope that has potential to be perfectly fine. Right now, it is neither "fine" nor "not-fine" simply because it has no RL section. Because it has no RL section and because we care about whether a section is not-fine or not not-fine, I'd say the trope as-is is "fine." This is a response to Gnome Titan's question: "Are the RL examples of Pooping Food a problem?" My answer is a hard "No, not right now." Not broke, don't fix (and I will probably be overusing that phrase at this point but put it on my locker, the "Not-broke-don't-fix Guy").
Moreover, the implied question of ![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
: "Do we need to make this trope NRLEP to start with?" I think not.
I'm wholly in the camp that says the trope description is not holy writ. I'm looking at the heart of trope (or what I understand that to be) rather than the letter of the trope. As I said above, it seems to be "it's both edible and looks like food." I don't think it needs to look like "human food," since Tropes Are Flexible and that distinction — for a trope — seems a bit too nuanced to be a separate thing altogether. That sounds like it would be a subtrope with little distinction, and an arbitrary one at that.
I'm not talking about "creature poops rocks and eats them," but rather "creature poops something that looks like what a human could eat," and a human could eat pet food (most people don't because of its taste or because it seems to be an affront to one's dignity, but it's still edible). The distinction between "human food" and "pet food" is what I'm talking about, and it seems way too nuanced to count as a separate trope.
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I'd rather steer away from "looks like human food" on account that it's unnecessarily anthropocentric, and many real-life animals (mostly arthropods) eat things that do not remotely like they're human food, the prime example being detritivores (e.g. earthworms and termites) and coprophages (e.g. flies and dung beetles). Unless, of course, examples of the "doesn't look like human food, but does look like the kind of food some real-life animals do eat" sort would be treated as the trope not being played straight.
edited 13th Oct '17 8:10:50 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
No, the other one.
To put a few more words to my opinion about Pooping Food (other than just "ain't broke; don't fix", which I've said many times before), I think that the description is sufficiently vague that a ban on real life examples is not warranted. It might be the case if the trope is redefined for one reason or another, but as it is, I don't think there's a clear case for banning real life examples. Since there isn't a current problem with the trope, erring on the side of caution is the best course of action.
Off-topic, but I've tasted pet food. Or more specifically a kind of dry cow feed. If you want to be charitable, it looked like cereals. Didn't taste anything in particular.
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
edited 13th Oct '17 9:43:17 AM by MarqFJA
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Oversized Garden Ornament
It's pretty obvious that Another Duck meant "caution" as in "don't change anything".
No, the other one.
I meant that. Caution here refers to taking it easy with removing real life sections. Which should be obvious by the context. Why would you assume something completely at odds with the rest of the post?
I've only rarely gone with a preemptive stance, and this certainly isn't one of those very severe cases.
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The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
The first thing I think of when someone says "don't change anything" while talking about real-life examples in an article that was not only launched without a real-life examples section but never had one included in the draft to begin with (despite several suggestions in the comments) is that they mean "don't add a real-life examples" section. The fact that it practically contradicted the preceding parts of the post is what prompted me to point it out.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
No, the other one.
Default is, and always will be, to allow real life examples. I don't think we should ever argue as if "do nothing" means banning real life examples.
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"In distress", my ass.
Pending:
- Embarrassing Damp Sheets: Added 12th Oct 2017, 5:04:37 AM, 6.5:1 (15)
- Pooping Food: Added 12th Oct 2017, 5:04:37 AM, 1:1.8 (14)
- A Dick in Name: Added 12th Oct 2017, 5:04:37 AM, 1:2.67 (11)
EDS is likely to be made NRLEP, while the other two are unlikely to recover from being so far in the hole, so probably will go on the "keep" list, but since the 48 hours minimum comes up on the weekend final decision won't be until Monday morning.
All your safe space are belong to Trump
"In distress", my ass.
A day late, but better late than never right? 
Calling for NRLEP:
- Embarrassing Damp Sheets: Added 12th Oct 2017, 5:04:37 AM, 7:2 (16)
Calling to keep RL examples:
- Pooping Food: Added 12th Oct 2017, 5:04:37 AM, 1:1.8 (14)
- A Dick in Name: Added 12th Oct 2017, 5:04:37 AM, 1:2.67 (11)
I think the real life examples Deus ex Machina should be gone. I believe that this is something that should only apply to fiction and it's impossible in real life. The Real Life examples of Diabolus ex Machina was cut for that same reason. If Diabolus ex Machina was cut, then so should Deus ex Machina.
No, the other one.
I agree with that. I don't think Deus ex Machina applies to Real Life events. That trope hinges on the constraints of a narrative, and bringing in a solution from outside that. There is no "outside" in Real Life, and that's even if you assume there's a narrative to begin with, which is false.
edited 17th Oct '17 6:35:47 AM by AnotherDuck
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So we should add it to the crowner?
Blapper of Water
Again, I'm kind of being more critical than normal because of the whole "too eager to cut" thing.
I'm not sure what the problem with Deus ex Machina is other than being a matter of principle. I've skimmed the examples list and the biggest issue with them that I can think of is the last two lacking sufficient context and some indentation issues throughout.
To respond directly to your points:
- The problem with Diabolus ex Machina as listed is that it's a narrative trope, not that it's necessarily impossible in real life.
- Moreover, it is possible in real life, so long as there is some kind of narrative — like a sporting event or it's a (re-)telling of history or it's a war story etc.
- Looking over the examples on Deus ex Machina, I'm not sure if those fall outside the requirements of the trope. Most of the examples are historical, and there's one that's sports related. They all seem to be more or less sudden or unexpected solutions from external sources to apparently unsolveable or hopeless problems. While I think they could be cleaned up a bit, I don't think that includes making the trope NRLEP.
Crown Description:
Vote up to either forbid all real life examples (No Real Life Examples Please) or forbid real life examples for specific subjects (Limited Real Life Examples Only); vote down to Keep Real Life Examples. To add a trope to a No Real Life Examples Please index or the Limited Real Life Examples Only index, its crowner option must meet the following criteria:- Stable 2:1 ratio needed for NRLEP or LRLEO
- Must have been up for a minimum of a week
- If the vote is exactly 2:1 or +/- 1 vote from that, give it a couple of extra days to see if more votes come in.
Since when has "squicky" been a reason to make something NRLEP?
Also, "potentially" isn't really a helpful adverb here. We've been talking about "not broke, don't fix" and the like, and "potential to be X" means "not currently X."
edited 12th Oct '17 6:10:59 AM by WaterBlap
Look at all that shiny stuff ain't they pretty