So why doesnt TVtropes want a page on these topics?

Ok...so so far I have been told about two pages that just have a banner preventing a page from existing, and im guessing there are more but I really dont know.

Lotte No Omocha

Naughty Tentacles

I had to look up that first once (seems it's about a succubus), since I had no idea what it was. On wikipedia. I am deeply concerned that we have stricter requirments for making a page now than wikipedia.

A quick search reveals that various rape tropes as well as Gag Penis and Hentai are still pages (although i think Kodomo no Jikan is no longer a page). Occams Razor suggests that the (at least) two pages in question were wiped and blocked by the staff of T Vtropes rather than by someone who is A: Aware of this site B: A moral guardian and C: A hacker.

So...a few questions. 1: Why? Im presuming this is about the site wanting to cut all its icky stuff to keep sweet google money rolling but that is just speculation on my part. 2: Why not those others I listed? 3: If this is going to spiral into a censorship firestorm does anyone plan to create a seperate site that listes tropes, memes, and cliches too "offensive" for T Vtropes? 4: Why is it when i searched the forum titles for "T Vtropes doesnt want a page on these topics" nothing came up and I was forced to make this thread?

My personal opinion is that claiming a trope doesnt exist is pointless. Presumably those pages were blocked rather than simply deleted because someone will restore them in the latter case but either way the effect is the same. "We dont have this trope. It may as well not exist."

I have been a part of this site longer than I think i care to admit. Maybe im crazy but I think i remember a day when i didnt need to Be Known to edit (perhaps it was just another wiki i was thinking of) and I have seen this site change a lot under the banner of "quality" and "standards" all without complaint(note 1). Im going to be blunt and simply say that this really smacks more of "Orwell" and "Censorship" but I will keep an open mind until I get some other peoples viewpoints.

Note 1: Although I was tempted to add TV Tropes to Serious Business I was able to resist.

edited 20th Apr '12 3:19:38 PM by Stormthorn

Because they got us in trouble with the Adservers, because porn isn't needed for troping and because tropers could not restrain the urge to add explicit things to the pages.

That's something you're really going to have to ask Fast Eddie about. He basically wants all porn and "pedophilic" content gone from the site. There was a lot of debate about what constituted those two, and it wasn't exactly helped by people going on cutlisting sprees. Recently, a council has been formed that is going to go over the stuff that got cut (because some stuff was cut that frankly didn't deserve it) and review stuff that didn't get cut to determine whether it fits the criteria. If something got cut that shouldn't have, there's a forum thread in the Content Violations subforum dedicated to allowing us to make a request for an appeal.

I've been trying to keep abreast of the whole damned situation on the forums, but frankly, things have been crazy around here.

edited 20th Apr '12 3:52:49 PM by TwoGunAngel

To get caught up, start with the big announcement.

Speaking of that announcement, "Too long, didn't read" is in full swing there, and several points seem to contradict those made in the Content Policy Change thread.

Can someone proofread and possibly shrink the announcement?

edited 20th Apr '12 3:38:26 PM by SeptimusHeap

A: Thanks to the guy who linked that

B: To the guy above me, it means no porn, no pedophilia. If its going to be as strict as that link says im going to miss the Disgaiea page. To quote: "If it's lolicon or shotacon, we don't want it here. And no, we don't care if the characters are really childlike robots or thirty-two gazillion years old or whatever."

Etna. Kinda fanservicy. Looks underage. Is really thirty-two gazillion years old. Falls under that.

C: Im torn between liking this site now and realizing that its no longer the site i origionaly got to know as "TV Tropes" Lolita (a book i first read when i wasnt much older than Dolores is supposed to be) cant exist as a page anymore because of underage sexual content. So now TV Tropes has sunk to roughly the same level of literary depth and tolerance as Jack Chick and people who burn Harry Potter because it promotes Satanism.

edited 20th Apr '12 4:00:08 PM by Stormthorn

@Storm: Lolita is slated to be one of the first works reviewed by the 5P, and will almost certainly be restored. Also, I don't think you have to worry about Disgaiea if it's just one character who's a little fanservicy.

@Septimus: Yes, it is long so that it can be thorough—it's a complex issue, and shortening the post by any significant amount would only cause further misconceptions. The questions in the Q&A portion (i.e. all but the first 10 lines) are helpfully bolded so that you can skip the answers you don't actually care about. Also, if you can be more explicit about the contradictions, please do so in PM—we did have several staff members look over that before it was posted.

edited 20th Apr '12 4:11:11 PM by Ironeye

Lolita is coming back. It hasn't actually been voted on yet, but there's not much doubt.

We're just waiting for the code to get ironed out. Yes, a good number of things are going to stay gone—no one has even attempted to come up with a reason to restore After School Sex Slave Club or Beat Blades Haruka. But we're going to discuss any work that is appealed, no matter what. Please just be patient with us.

Oh, and there is a thread for discussing alternatives to the giant "We do not want a page on this topic" banner, here.

edited 20th Apr '12 4:11:08 PM by Discar

Good to know, although alternatives dont really matter. As i stated above, the huge "WE DONT LIKE THIS" banner and the Orwellian Editor approach both serve the same purpose. How that purpose is achieved is for aetheticly minded people to argue. Im more of a "Hey, can I get some freedoms up in this joint? Were did it all go?" type of guy, and that was the point of my initial questioning post.

The mere fact that the staff felt that we needed to remove Lolita in the first place validates my opinion of the level of literary appreciation present. Although the idea that it might be restored is comforting, it smacks of the "furiously backpeddeling" approach of politicians and organizations caught doing something bad. To put it more snarkily, T Vtropes is saying: "Sure we lumped Lolita in with anime created for nothing but the titillation of pedophiles because thats how we feel. But, now that you noticed our embarassingly shallow interpretation, we will pretend to regret that discission until you forget about it or, if we have to, bring it back."

Im glad that only pedophilia and porn tropes are being targeted. It would be greatly upsetting if we G-rated the site and removed every trope related to sex.

It's more that the initial wave operated on "cut first, ask questions later". By its very nature, it was going to have all sorts of false positives, with the intent that any that were discovered could be reviewed and restored. It's not like someone thought, "You know what really needs to be cut? Lolita. It's gotten a lot of respect before, but that ends now!"

I was thinking more that the removal of Lolita had to be do to ignorance of the work in question (thinking its child porn). Simply allowing someone with good firsthand knowledge of the story to make that choice would probably not have caused it to be deleted, although with anything political you cant really be sure. I doubt anyone had Nabakov steal their girlfriend and was just waiting to get revenge or something.

Moving to Wiki Talk.

I'm going to go out on a limb and guarantee that Disgaea is not going to be cut. It's not the sort of thing we're looking for by a long shot. Porn Without Plot, Porn with an excuse plot, and works that are made to mainly titillate pedophiles are what's out. None of Nippon Ichi's games fall under any of those categories.

Thank you for moving this. I was lost since it was a wide ranging action but specific trope pages got the huge banner. I more or less picked between Wiki and Trope sections of the forum at random.

Im greatly comforted that merely having a fanservicy young looking character isnt going to outright destroy pages. Not the least of which because lots of anime have characters older than they look.

By way of clarification, is the intent here to remove all references to any unacceptably prurient works and tropes, or merely to remove their pages? For instance, Amusement Park currently lists a Lotte no Omocha example. Should that example be removed from Amusement Park (and if so, should this be done before or after a final decision is announced regarding the work)?

In addition, I was wondering if there might be some means for us peons to provide the P5 with information on the works currently being considered under these guidelines. It would be unfortunate if so decisive a decision were to be made based on little more than a wikipedia plot synopsis.

If I'm not terribly mistaken, removing examples (especially non-sexual ones) of cut works from trope pages entirely counts as vandalism. That was one of the questions I asked when the discussion thing was still going on. Removing redlinks is my general tack, and only if the page has been cut and it's decided it's not coming back.

edited 20th Apr '12 8:11:05 PM by TwoGunAngel

No, please do not clear wicks until the page has been definitely determined to not be coming back.

edited 20th Apr '12 8:20:38 PM by Willbyr

(This is entirely an aside point, but what does "5P" mean?)

Well, it's either "Posse for the Prevention of Pedophilia and Pure Porn," "Panel to Purge Pornography, Paedophilia and Perversity," or "Panel Preventing Perversity, Pornography and Paedoshit." Take your pick.

No one fully agrees what the long version is, but it goes something like Panel Purging Porn, Perversity, and Paedophilia.

Edit: Nin Nin.

edited 20th Apr '12 9:17:19 PM by encrypted12345

There is a petition to restore Lotte btw.

I think we could have done better with providing people information, seeing that time and again people are coming and protesting with wrong assumptions in mind. But now, it's great that Bobby G came up with that detailed announcement.

In brief, Stormthorn, some of the stuff that were cut, were cut temporarily, and some cuts that people consider absurd (e.g. Lolita) will be restored. The whole thing is in progress; there will be a system where you can both recommend for a page's deletion and appeal for what you consider a wrong decision.

Considering that no other pages (except Naughty Tentacles, to which it really applies) were slapped with that banner, and the work itself was appealed, I ask to remove the banner from Lotte No Omocha (and its subpages) and "reinstate" the page as "cut". I can't imagine it really stands out of other cut articles enough for marking it as this.

Naughty Tentacles has been appealed, so hold your horses on that one. My wild-assed guess is it'll be restored with a lock and cleanup (possibly an Example Sectionectomy).

Naughty Tentacles was removed because it was the page reported as objectionable to Google. It isn't part of this, but it may be restored. We're talking about it.

I realize that the modified guidelines posted by me originally and modified since can be interpreted as cartoonishly strict, but they're not intended to be. The reason we have the 5P is so that people whose judgement we trust can make the call case by case, rather than relying on rules that have proven impossible to write in such a way that catches all the stuff we want gone without catching collateral works.

@One More - Lotte No Pedoshit was cut by Eddie himself specifically for being pedoshit. That's why it has the banner, and it deserves that.