The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

At the very least, Bio needs to go on hold until more evidence is available. There isn't any at the moment. Plus, this discussion would be more suited for the page restoration thread, so that makes two reasons we should just drop it here.

Meeble: Thanks for saying what I couldn't quite articulate. Rulings on "porn" and "paedo-pandering" are based on two separate sets of guidelines, although the two may intersect at certain points. Comparing them without context isn't quite fair.

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.

I'm sorry I've been expressing myself very poorly lately.

I would say it is more of an expression of confusion and a desire for greater and more specific public discussion of the mitigating and agrevating factors behind certain works still under consideration that are sold under a category that on the surface appears to classify them in such a way that is contrary to how we are characterizing them.

It is not so much that I have any strong desire to see Legend Of The Blue Wolves cut, but I think that if we were to give a pass on something that everyone else seems to think is porn, we need to present a clear and specific reason why.

It is not some much that I have any particular liking for Ultimate Girls or would go into a fit of dispair if it were to be cut, but I think that were we to cut it, we need an explantion more specific than "fanservice of underage girls" that is equally true of everything else in the ecchi shounen category that has either already gotten a pass or we have been told would not be cut.

I think a clearer and more specific explanation of the reasoning behind some of the less obvious decisions gives those that have not yet voted more to go on, and the rest of us a better appreciation of the process and a better feel for what sorts of factors to consider when we are making a page in the future or are concerned about whether or not a page on a work that we do like might get cut in the future.

The girl appeared *really* young, I think.

I've already stated my take elsewhere on Ultimate Girls but the gist of my reasoning is the premise of the series involves the characters fighting Kaiju with the problem of their clothes disintegrating rapidly as they use power. That's about it. Where the greater problem comes in is that the most overtly sexualized both in universe (she plays up the whole "looks 13 without being 13" angle and likes to pose for the onlookers contrasting with the others who are just embarrassed by the whole thing) and (by my judgment) out of universe. To borrow your (now removed) example of Negima from a page or so ago, there is an ongoing plot (one I can't elaborate on having no desire to read it) that consists of more than clothes getting blown off. Long story short, by my judgment, UG is essentially an exercise in providing fanservice of a rather dubious nature, whereas Negima is legitimately more than that.

To address Blue Wolves, reliable sources indicate there is significantly more plot than sex. Simple as that, really.

To reiterate what my more eloquent colleague said, the standards between porn and pedopandering are vastly different. Porn is legal in many jurisdictions. Statutory rape is not. Thus it follows that we should be much quicker to drop the hammer on pedopandering. Not to mention that this is The Fast One's site, and he wants it that way.

TL;DR Version: (1) Much of what we do is a judgment call and (2) what Meeble said.

Noted, and amended accordingly.

edited 20th Aug '12 9:33:53 AM by tdgoodrich1

"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen

To shorten the argument: Negima's premise is very different from the fanservice. The fanservice-y bits are key to Ultimate Girls's premise.

Also, "pedophilia" isn't usually illegal (a mental illness is not a crime). "Statutory rape" (bad name, BTW) is (with its varying definitions).

ETA: A missing sentence.

edited 20th Aug '12 12:08:52 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Better.

Anyway, more info on Ultimate Girls, for what it is worth one way or another in making a decision:

Japanese Wiki, which can be run through Google Translate.

The show aired in 2005. The birthdays of all the girls is given as being 1987. Their school grade is listed as the second year of highschool, which is equivelent to the third year of high school. Careful examination of the original characters show that they are using the character given here as indicating a "kōkō" or upper secondary school, not a "chūgakkō" or junior high school

The show was carried on a UHF station aimed at viewers 15 and older.

The manga was carried in shounen manga ''Dengeki Comic Gao!''.

Edit PS: Moving on to other things...

References for Nozoki Ana:

• Wiki Article
• Anime News Network
• Baka Updates
• "Manga Access" description with link to scanlations.

General consenesus seems to be that it has mature and explicit content, but no one seems to be quite willing to classify it as porn. The sample pictures on the pages and the plot description seems to indicate everyone is college age.

edited 20th Aug '12 10:26:42 AM by Catbert

For the sake of terseness and the avoidance of redundancy, what Meeble and Goodrich has already stated generally applies to me, too.

I would also like to add this: while I will always take "target demographic" into account for my decisions for a given work, it alone will not necessarily save said work from a devilhead. This especially applies to what constitutes as "pedo-pandering," which as far as I'm concerned, is any sexual depictions of (especially pre)pubescent individuals made for the primary (especially sole) purpose of titillation and/or fetishism.

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

First chapter, main male character is listed as 18, moving into a room to attend technical school.

Just wanted to clarify.

We Are Our Avatars Forever (Now on Discord by invitation, PM)

i.e. "criminal pedophilia" is acting on pedophiliac urges by targeting children (as opposed to very young-looking adults).

/end derail

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.

• To reiterate what my more eloquent colleague said, the standards between porn and pedopandering are vastly different. Porn is legal in many jurisdictions. Statutory rape is not. Thus it follows that we should be much quicker to drop the hammer on pedopandering. Not to mention that this is The Fast One's site, and he wants it that way.

• Also, "pedophilia" isn't usually illegal (a mental illness is not a crime). "Statutory rape" (bad name, BTW) is (with its varying definitions).

• This especially applies to what constitutes as "pedo-pandering, " which as far as I'm concerned, is any sexual depictions of (especially pre)pubescent individuals made for the primary (especially sole) purpose of titillation and/or fetishism.

• i.e. "criminal pedophilia" is acting on pedophiliac urges by targeting children (as opposed to very young-looking adults).

I would suggest that given that there is no sex in the work statuatory rape really doesn't come into play. I also think that given that the characters being played for titilation are all approximatly 16-17 and the work is aimed to other 16-17 year olds, that pedophilia doesn't come into play. Teens being attracted to their peers is generally considered acceptable by the law and the mental health profession alike.

As interesting as this digression was, the health profession uses a different definition of pedophilia than ours and the legality (or the definition) of statutory rape is of little relevance here, so I'd say to can the argument.

Angel/devil report:

• Chunin Exam Day: 2 angels 0 devils.
• Yume Miru Kusuri: 2 devils, 0 angels.
• Slave World: 2 devils, 0 angels.
• Ultimate Girls: 2 devils, 1 angel.
• Gore Screaming Show: 2 devils, 0 angels.
• Legend of the Blue Wolves: 0 devils, 2 angels.
• Hell MOO: 2 devils, 0 angels.
• The Anatomy Of A Fall: 0 devils, 2 angels.

I also notice that Nozoki Ana has no votes yet.

edited 20th Aug '12 12:55:02 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

Doomed Hell MOO.

Nozoki Ana is on my pile. Currently it's treading on thin ice.

"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen

Nozoki Ana... it's teetering on the edge for me...

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

Is it porn? The description doesn't seem to be pedo.

It's on the border of porn. Nothing resembling pedopandering in the first 10ish chapters

"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen

I don't think you have to worry abut pedopandering just the porn/not porn issue.

Chunin Exam Day isn't porn, just awful. I don't remember any other questionable material.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

It's already been resolved to keep because of that, LU. We can't cut any works because of their quality, after all...

Oops, I forgot to respond to this:

Send me a link, Kuro. Surely, it can't be that bad...

Experience has taught me to investigate anything that glows.

You're giving lines like that on purpose, aren't you?

Looks like it.

Not a substitute for a formal medical consultation.

Lu: As our resident Naruto fan(?) do you know anything about Echoing of the Fragile Wind?

Sorry to have put you through this.

edited 21st Aug '12 9:13:30 AM by tdgoodrich1

"Polite life will fill you full of cancer." - Iggy Pop "I've seen the future, brother, it is murder." -Leonard Cohen

Reading the first two chapters of Truth in Flowers, there's nothing. No sex. Third chapter though...is a bad sex scene. Like out of My Immortal. -__-

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer

Are we supposed to still have an article on Fifty Shades of Grey?

It is listed here as being an article that P5 decided to cut.

Also, has there been any discussion about whether or not we want to do something with the Erotic Literature index?

edited 21st Aug '12 9:18:58 AM by Catbert

I sent a holler a few days ago to fix that. Still no response.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman