Suggesting new namespaces

Thinking some more about Album/, I think it's not likely to solve any problems, and likely to create more later on.

The usual album is more similar to an anthology or a collection of short works. It's far more likely than a novel to be released in different variants in different markets, and they can easily be split up into pieces, combined into new albums, or put together into new releases.

The exception to that are primarily the true concept albums (and the very few really groundbreaking albums), but they can be compared to influential anthologies, like Dangerous Visions.

So put them in Music/ for now. If we get enough albums that they start to take over that namespace, then we can discuss making Album/, but lets not make new namespaces unless there is a clear need for it.

Time to clarify my position, since I'll admit put it way too simplistically last time:

I am a firm believer in simplicity and consistency when it comes to the wiki. This makes it easy for new people to understand how the wiki works, as well as making it simple keeping track of the rules of the wiki for veteran tropers like me.

In terms of page construction, this takes the form of page templates. That, within a given category, all pages that fit within that category have the same basic function and format, with most differences a matter of aesthetics. Since namespaces are a major way the wiki sorts works into categories, all pages within a namespace should function the same way.

Also, when it comes to namespaces, less is more. We already have a few too many divisions based on what culture produced the work, or whether it was published digitally or not. I'd rather see those phased out with time, but that's a lesser concern. However, the last thing we need is more division across namespaces.

So, I don't want two namespaces for music, and I want whatever namespace we use to follow a single set of rules. So having both pages for albums and artists is out. Either we categorize music by albums, or by artist. Doing it by albums is more consistent with the way most other work namespaces are designed ^note I'm looking at you, ComicBook/, but leaves out artists who release singles digitally and not in sets. Doing it by artists catches those lone singles, but looks odd compared to how work pages normally work elsewhere on the wiki.

So the whole namespace debate is secondary, really. We can't decide whether to use Album/ if we haven't decided if we're going to be serious about cataloging music by albums. Make sense?

That gives me an idea: what if we put musicians and musical acts in Creator/ with the authors, filmmakers, and so forth, and then used Music/ for songs, albums, concerts, or whatever other musical works prove sufficiently tropeable?

Edit: This kind of clumping would parallel how short stories, novels, and long-running fiction serials all fit under Literature/.

edited 8th Oct '14 4:23:37 PM by RobinZimm

I still don't know why musicians aren't in Creator/

—R.J.

Musicians aren't in Creator/ because their pages aren't about the creators, but about their work. Also, there are things that creator pages don't allow that musicians' pages would have to have to accomodate their job. Never mind that rearranging the namespace now would require a lot of work.

edited 9th Oct '14 2:06:01 AM by SeptimusHeap

Point of order: pages in the Creator/ namespace are still primarily about the work, not the person. Some of the musician pages are about the public persona that is used in the act.

• Creator.Isaac Asimov is about his work.
• Creator.Mel Blanc is about his work.
• Creator.Amy Acker is about her work.
• Creator.Lauren Faust is about her work.

Creator pages also collect trivia tropes.

edited 9th Oct '14 9:21:40 AM by crazysamaritan

Calling this one for Myth/ .

What he said.

—R.J.

Alright... I guess it's back to square one about how to cover the mythologies.

Perhaps it's the wording of my crowner that led to this confusion, but I was led to understand that the scope would also cover the overall mythos rather than just an individual legend. My request to take a couple pages off the Work Pages In Main and add the namespace to Namespace was put on hold for this reason. We need to address the scope of the agreed-upon Myth/ namespace.

edited 23rd Oct '14 7:59:44 PM by EarlOfSandvich

The issue is not the crowner, the issue is that people for some reason want to treat "myths, legends and Oral Tradition" the same way as mythology systems. Mythology systems include artwork and written-down material, not just "myths, legends and Oral Tradition".

The push is for a more inclusive namespace to avoid multiple namespaces. Yes, full mythologies are different from individual myths and legends, but the unique namespace is used merely for convenience.

Other namespaces do cover several related things (like Ride/ for both Theme Parks and unique rides, or Music/ for both musicians and albums, or Series/ for both TV dramas and gameshows...) It's just how the wiki developped itself.

Well, technically none of these things are very different from each other (albums are composed out of songs). A mythology system is a lot different from a Myth - in theory, depending upon the culture in question, one could have a mythology system that isn't "myth, legend or Oral Tradition" at all for example.

I'm not saying they're the same. They're not, that's clear enough. I'm just saying it's simpler to put them all under the same namespace. As long as we agree they fall under the "works" category, the shoe fits.

Problem is, all the albums done so far is under Music/. They will all need to be converted, which would be a painstaking process.

But from now on, when I create album pages it will go under Album/. This is something that Patachou and others should now follow when creating album pages.

Huh ... I am not sure if we have agreed on that, yet.

It was a suggestion. They can still put it under Music/ if they'd like. I'm just saying that I will by putting it down as Album/ for now on.

Well, if we haven't agreed on it, you can't start pages in it. Do we need a crowner for Album/?

I won't go for the Album namespace. Still makes sense to have wrestling venues (eg Wrestling.Wrestle Mania) to share the same namespace with the wrestlers (eg Wrestling.Hulk Hogan). It makes sense to have a let's play series (eg LetsPlay.Marik Plays Bloodlines) to share the same namespace with an LPer (eg LetsPlay.Markiplier). An Album/ namespace would be fairly narrow in scope, and I quite frankly don't see the problem having one share the same namespace as a musical act.

As for the Myth/ part, I really do believe that the namespace can not only encompass an individual legend, but also the mythological structure as well. An aspect of the mythos that's written can still be filed under Literature/, but what I do have in mind is a home for the the mythologies, and Franchise/ just won't work since they're not commercial by nature.

edited 9th Nov '14 1:28:10 PM by EarlOfSandvich

About the album namespace:

It may be a lot of work to convert all the "Music/" namespaces to "Album/", but that hasn't stopped us in the past when we did other converts.... ("Main/" to "Useful Notes/", f.e.). If we do it now it will be less work than in three years. The fact alone that we already have a lot of albums at this point says a lot about the urgency. I mean, how many more examples do we need to prove that there are really enough people interested in the subject?

Besides, we already have a namespace for "Audioplay/...": how many articles about audioplays do we have at this moment? 33! (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AudioPlay) How many articles about albums we have? 200 and counting! (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AlbumsIndex) And still "Audioplay" has its own namespace and "Albums" or "Music Albums" has not!

Seriously, lets put a crowner and a vote on it. It will be the only democratic and efficient way to solve this matter. At least then a definite decision can be made, because seriously: we've been going on about this for months now and still nothing is happening.

edited 15th Nov '14 12:18:24 AM by Patachou

OK, I've hooked an Album crowner.

I do hope the Album crowner vote wins. It'll make self-titled albums for example to be easier to deal with, which is currently a pain in the arse.

Oh damn, I didn't even realize a crowner for albums had been hooked until now. Still a major supporter of that namespace. Albums are a major piece of media, and as a site dedicated to media in all its forms, we have a responsibility to catalog them (and to do so in an organized fashion).

edited 16th Nov '14 12:30:23 PM by Odd1

Yeah, having a thread on a thread watchlist is a really good thing.

Anyhow, I am not personally convinced that there is a point in having a separate namespace from the Music/ one, especially since most albums are more appropriately troped under their creators and are so already.

Just wondering, how long will the crowner go for?

As long as it takes; there's no set time period for crowners, especially in TRS.