Discussion of religion in the context of LGBTQ+ rights is only allowed in this thread.
Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBTQ+ rights..." threads.
Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.
Edited by Mrph1 on Dec 1st 2023 at 6:52:14 PM
Orthodoxy is Written by the Winners?
The Mod with the Migraine
Since we're on page 666, do the various Satanist groups support LGBT rights? 
A procrastination in of itself
Satanist groups tend to be atheists groups that have declared themselves churches to point out the stupidity of a number of laws that have been passed to favour Evangelical Christianity but written such that any religion could use them.
So I imagine they do, though as far as I’m awere they weren’t the ones challenging DOMA on the grounds that it violated their first amendment right to not have the government unreasonably outlaw marriage as defined by their faith.
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Catholic orthodoxy doesn't have much to say about gay rights, if you mean in the civil sense. I mean, the established Church teachings on the subject are what they are ... but nothing about them implies that a secular polity doesn't have the right to tolerate it—or that a faithful Catholic must think it's something the state needs to make its business. Seems reasonable enough to me.
edited 5th Feb '18 12:05:50 PM by Jhimmibhob
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
vicarious
Oh
That makes sense to me.
The Mod with the Migraine
In other news, a Christian group in Ohio has purchased a closed-down gay bar, with the intent of renovating it into a church. My first thought, naturally, was how many of them are using this as a contrived excuse to cover for their own repressed homosexual desires.
The Blade reported property records show the Bretz Nightclub building in Toledo was bought last month for $148,000.
The Greater Toledo House of Prayer said the previous owner had tried to sell the building for three years so it could remain open as a gay club. The group said it has no role in closing the club and bought the building because it needs more space.
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My thoughts too.
edited 6th Feb '18 2:33:36 PM by TheWildWestPyro
Boy I fell in love with introduced me to meditation and binaural beats...
I always get stuck on Vishudda, which is self-expression, because I was afraid to out myself, online or off.
Old Testament Christianity is against gays, New Testament didn't have anything to say about it? Neoliberal Christianity allowed it, but neo-paleoconservative Christianity doesn't.
Love is love, is it not? Even if it isn't directly reproductive. But that's what experimental procedures are for.
Most "natural" births aren't even that "natural" anyway. How many ancient humans drove to a hospital to have expert doctors procedurally Operation the baby out of her.
edited 13th Mar '18 8:18:31 AM by Keybreak
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Is not like people in general had the idea of what a human right was until the last five centuries.
You are describing only the Satanic temple, there Theistic satanism and ideological satanism.
edited 13th Mar '18 8:30:12 AM by KazuyaProta
Watch me destroying my country
It's not quite old testament vs new testament, more like those who take every word in the Bible literally vs those with a more open-minded approach.
Both OT and NT have some disobliging things to say about homosexuality. Literalism isn't really the issue here; hermeneutics and textual analysis have been a thing for millennia. And even though no Thomist born could ever be accused of taking "every word in the Bible literally," orthodox construals of the texts have been pretty consistent on the matter.
Now, there are theologians whose conclusions are more congenial to the modern temper on this issue, but "literalism vs. open-mindedness" doesn't fairly describe the divide.
edited 13th Mar '18 3:30:48 PM by Jhimmibhob
"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
A procrastination in of itself
My copy of the New Testament doesn’t say anything about homosexuality being a negative in of itself, it calls out abusive relationships (which with context is a reference to the abuse teacher-student relationships of Greece) and people becoming so overwhelmed by lust that they go beyond their normal sexual interests, but nothing about homosexuality itself being bad.
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My bad, though honestly I agree with you about lists.
edited 13th Mar '18 4:06:38 PM by Silasw
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Brenner's Wolves Fight Again
I've always known that lists are evil.
Where there's life, there's hope.
Theologians, rightly or wrongly, have traditionally considered Romans 1, I Corinthians 6, and I Timothy 1 to all refer to homosexuality. There are a few competing modern arguments about some of those verses' contexts ... but though they might pose an (more/less plausible, depending on whom you ask) alternative to the orthodox interpretations, they don't manage to invalidate them.
My understanding is the issue with those verses there is that Paul was using a very particular word in Greek but no one knows exactly what it means because Paul (and people quoting him) are literally the only places that word is found. Probably some sort of regional or subcultural vernacular that didn't get written down a lot.
I don't know about the verses in question, but St. Paul was not above neologisms or usages that, by 1st-century Greek standards, would be considered jargon. Educated fellow though he was, he was the sort of guy who'd probably express himself in textspeak were he around today.
The Mod with the Migraine
So there was a fairly large research study
done on religious attitudes towards homosexuals and how it's changed in the last several years. I won't paste the whole thing here (because it's very long and has lots of nice graphs), but a few highlights:
- Today a majority of all racial and ethnic groups favor allowing gay and lesbian couples to marry legally. Between 2013 and 2017, we have seen a double-digit increase in support for same-sex marriage among white (53% vs. 63%), black (41% vs. 52%), and Hispanic (51% vs. 61%) Americans.3 Currently, about four in ten (39%) black Americans, three in ten (30%) white Americans, and only about one-quarter (26%) of Hispanic Americans oppose same-sex marriage. Majorities of smaller racial and ethnic groups also support same-sex marriage today, including Asian-Pacific Islander Americans (72 percent), Native Americans (56 percent), and those identifying as multiracial or with another racial and ethnic group (66 percent).
- Opposition to same-sex marriage is now confined to a few of the most conservative Christian religious traditions. Only about one-third (34%) of white evangelical Protestants support same-sex marriage today, while nearly six in ten (58%) are opposed, including 30% who are strongly opposed. And just 40% of Mormons support same-sex marriage, compared to 53% who are opposed.
- The issue of same-sex marriage is approaching consensus among young adults (age 18 to 29). More than three-quarters (77%) favor legalizing same-sex marriage, including nearly half (45%) who strongly favor it. Only 17% of young adults are opposed. In contrast, fewer than half (47%) of seniors (age 65 and up) say same-sex marriage should be legal, while about four in ten (42%) oppose it.
- In only six states does the issue of same-sex marriage garner less than majority support: Alabama (41%), Mississippi (42%), Tennessee (46%), West Virginia (48%), Louisiana (48%), and North Carolina (49%). But notably, only one state, Alabama, has a majority of residents who oppose same-sex marriage.
- Only two major religious groups believe small business owners in their state should be allowed to refuse service to gay or lesbian people on religious grounds—white evangelical Protestants and Mormons. Notably, they support this position at the same rate—53%.
- As with same-sex marriage, views on religiously based service refusals vary dramatically by political affiliation. More than three-quarters (76%) of Democrats and six in ten (60%) independents are opposed, compared to only 40% of Republicans. A slim majority (52%) of Republicans favor giving business owners in their state the right to refuse products or services to gay or lesbian people if providing them would violate their religious beliefs.
- Although there is broad agreement about nondiscrimination laws, there are still notable differences by age and gender. Younger Americans tend to be more supportive of legal protections than older Americans. Nearly eight in ten (78%) young adults (age 18-29) favor nondiscrimination protections, including 45% who strongly favor them. Even among seniors (age 65 and up), who tend to be less supportive of same-sex marriage, more than six in ten (61%) favor nondiscrimination protections for LGBT Americans, and only 29% oppose them.
- Mormons are unique among religious Americans in their outlook on same-sex marriage and nondiscrimination protections for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people. Only 40% of Mormons favor allowing same-sex couples to marry, yet nearly seven in ten (69%) support laws that would protect LGBT people from discrimination in housing, public accommodations, and employment—a 29-point gap. Among no other major religious group is the gap on these two issues larger.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
The Mormons seem to be really interesting in that regard.
The Mod with the Migraine
Judging by the Mormons I know, it's because they think it's wrong according to the word of God to be gay, but that doesn't mean they have to be mean to you about it (the way evangelicals do), it means they need to pray for you and preach to you and do their best to help you find Jesus so that God will cure your gayness and you'll be a better person.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
Mormons even believe in hell? I have a Mormon friend that says that his family doesn't.
(He's pro gay marriage, by the way)
Watch me destroying my country
The Mod with the Migraine
I'm honestly not sure what the official Mormon stance is on hell; but it's pretty clear evangelicals (like Southern Baptists) wholeheartedly believe in the standard everyone-but-me-burns afterlife, which is what I was referring to.
I think the Mormon attitudes can be better explained by their own history of being discriminated against or even persecuted in the USA
While they did suffer a lot of persecution, they also have had their own issues with racism against both blacks as well as Native Americans.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Shin Megami Tensei IV
And? They're still part of American society, they're gonna share it's issues. They're no different than other groups.
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Not quite. Orthodoxy isn't quite the same thing as blind fundamentalism. Orthodoxy is more or less just the centre of the religious Overton window, so if the window shifts sufficiently in that direction, orthodox acceptance and support of LGBT rights will eventually be a thing.
Angry gets shit done.