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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

 8601 Jhimmibhob, Thu, 7th Feb '13 8:14:27 AM from Arm's reach of the julep machine Relationship Status: My own grandpa
[up][up][up]As someone said about the Church, it's precisely because they believe certain things that they don't by definition, believe certain other things. All-encompassing credulity is not the sole alternative to all-encompassing skepticism.

And of course, Polar, it's the prerogative of other nations to inflict their idea of "consequences" for opinions they don't like—if they can, and if they consider it advisable. Of course, if a significant chunk of one's own citizens shares those opinions, it might prove unwise to give said citizens the impression that their own government is inimical to them, and might even consider them worthy of suffering certain "consequences" if legal/constitutional protections didn't stand in the way.

edited 7th Feb '13 8:14:43 AM by Jhimmibhob

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
NCC - 1701
I don't think we should be sanctioning people (or groups of people) for their opinions. Instead, we should sanction them for their actions.

QFT.
It was an honor
 8603 Iaculus, Thu, 7th Feb '13 8:29:26 AM from England
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
[up]And if those words encourage the actions of others? C'mon, Maxima, you're a Star Trek fan. You're saying that a Rousing Speech is devoid of influence?
Freedom of speech includes the freedom for other people to call you out on your bullshit.
NCC - 1701
Note to self: Broadly advertising your Trekkie leanings may come back to bite you. Beware.
It was an honor
 8605 Wildcard, Thu, 7th Feb '13 8:33:27 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
We already do sanction people for their opinions. If a person goes about spewing hate speech we not only call him or her out on it but we ban them from places where that attitude where it is not welcome, don't consider them worthy of intellectual argument, and tell all sorts of people we know about how bad they are.

[up]Makes you feel better Ship you could use our own leaning against us in an argument if you really wanted too.

[down]That making fun of and the stuff I say above I'd call that sanctioning.

edited 7th Feb '13 8:35:54 AM by Wildcard

Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
 8606 Vericrat, Thu, 7th Feb '13 8:34:05 AM from .0000001 seconds ago
Like this, but brown.
@Polarstern I don't think it really does. If the words themselves cause real, measurable, immediate harm, that's different (slander, "fire" in a crowded building, etc).

By leaving speech open to content-based restrictions, you would make it so we could democratically choose to say, "You know what? It's illegal to even advocate for gay rights." And if we could do that, we would have fifty years ago, and the gay rights movement would have to live underground forever.

You can't just say, "Well, content based restrictions should be in place when they work for the good of the people, " (e.g. "You can't say that black people are worth less than white people" something that we might all agree would make the world a better place) because society is always sure it's right about something that ends up being wrong. The other side would say their content-based restrictions work for the good of the people.

No thanks, I'd prefer to live in a world where the racist and homophobe can say their peace, and I can make fun of them for their bigotry than a world where only one but not the other could exist.

EDIT: [up] Yes, we can choose not to associate ourselves with people who have offensive opinions, and our own freedom of speech allows us to say how stupid we think they are. I wasn't arguing against that, but I do argue against making things procedurally more difficult for people with offensive opinions.

edited 7th Feb '13 8:36:02 AM by Vericrat

THIS IS A PSA: As of 1/1/13 there is a 1-year moratorium on No Pants Thursdays. Instead, we shall celebrate No Pants 2013.
NCC - 1701
[up] I can see Vericrat is going to become a Justice in the Supreme Court and will write opinions about the First Amendment that will be taught in law schools for many years to come.

edited 7th Feb '13 8:37:41 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 8608 Wildcard, Thu, 7th Feb '13 8:43:25 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
Vericrat if I wanted to open a restaurant or a game store, or an art studio or any place where anybody can ask for a job or get a good or service than I could say to someone who brought racism to my place "Get out or I'm calling the cops!" after a few "you need to leave" warnings.

Isn't that making it more difficult for them though? After all they have to eat somewhere else and there may not be another restaurant for miles. Or do you just not want them to have a harder time with politics and the federal law?

edited 7th Feb '13 8:44:19 AM by Wildcard

Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
NCC - 1701
@Wildcard - I can't say with certainty, but I think the general rule is this.

If you open Wildcard's Ribs and Beer House and I come in, and, say, Kay and her girlfriend enter, and I start carrying on about how awful it is that a man can't eat his ribs in peace without having to see two dykes, and how my meal is ruined...

And I'm being loud and disruptive and visibly making Kay and her gf uncomfortable, you'd have an obligation to throw me out on my ass.

Now, let's say the come in, I stare at them for a while and continue eating my meal. When finished, the server comes to bring the bill, and remarks at how cute the lesbian couple is. I make a remark like "Well, if you say so. Personally, I could've gone without seeing that."

If the server then informs you, and you in turn tell me that I'm not welcome back at your restaurant, I could conceivably sue you. And win.
It was an honor
 8610 Wildcard, Thu, 7th Feb '13 8:54:37 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
Huh...I stand corrected then. That is a good point.

Hey wait a minute! Can't I refuse service to anyone without giving a reason? Like that cake caterer could of done?

edited 7th Feb '13 9:00:51 AM by Wildcard

Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
NCC - 1701
As Iaculus points out speech can have an impact for good or bad. I think what Vericrat is saying, and where I've always agreed with him, is that we need to be judicious in what we call impact.

Kay and her gf have as much a right to enjoy your ribs and beer as I do. When my speech impedes their rights, that's a clear action.

Now, if my speech is limited to the everyday expressing of an opinion, and they're feelings are hurt, they are responsible for their own ruined meal. Not I.

As always, all about balance.

EDIT: [up] Yes, you could. You could discriminate against Kay and her gf, or me, and give no reason. If she can prove you're refusing service because she's lesbian, you're up shit's creek. Ditto if I can prove you refused me service because I'm a "homophobe".

Unless of course you open your rib joint in Arkansas....

edited 7th Feb '13 9:04:40 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Princess Ymir's knightess
Kay and her girlfriend

You keep using us whenever you need a gay example. XD

[up] But I don't eat meat and we both hate beer!

edited 7th Feb '13 9:01:14 AM by kay4today

 8613 Wildcard, Thu, 7th Feb '13 9:02:22 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
@Kay: Than what are you doing at my restaurant!? I don't need your pity! Just because I don't have any customers cause I opened where there a no roads.sad

edited 7th Feb '13 9:08:15 AM by Wildcard

Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
NCC - 1701
I'm sorry Kay, but you're the only homosexual who I can count on never getting offended by my examples. Well, you and L Mage.

we both hate beer!
Dear God, you're pathetic! [lol]

edited 7th Feb '13 9:04:09 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 8615 Wildcard, Thu, 7th Feb '13 9:05:44 AM from Somewhere in the galaxy
Go! Fly! Win!
Good point Starship. I see what your saying now.

edited 7th Feb '13 9:06:10 AM by Wildcard

Whatever tomorrow brings I'll be there. With open arms and open eyes.
Princess Ymir's knightess
[up][up][up] The homophobes hunted us through the forest and there was no other place to go!

[up][up] I can't hear you over the sound of my loving relationship. 8D

NCC - 1701
[up] [lol][tup]
It was an honor
 8618 Morgikit, Thu, 7th Feb '13 9:32:14 AM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
All-encompassing credulity is not the sole alternative to all-encompassing skepticism.

Doesn't mean I can't derive amusement from selective incredulity.

I don't like beer either. I like ribs though.
Nya

Tropers Riff Movies (7PM EST)
NCC - 1701
Morgikit how in the world are you from Alabama and you don't like beer? Although since you do like ribs I'm inclined to let that slide.

edited 7th Feb '13 9:51:38 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 8620 shimaspawn, Thu, 7th Feb '13 9:52:50 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Catholic Bishops Threaten Immigration Reform Unless it Excludes Gay People.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 8621 Achaemenid, Thu, 7th Feb '13 10:17:49 AM from the jetty, gazing at the sea. Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
[up]

I can find no words to express how angry that makes me.
 8622 Radical Taoist, Thu, 7th Feb '13 10:40:16 AM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
I can't hear you over the sound of my loving relationship.
AWWW FUCKING SNAP

@Catholic archbishops: way to piss off your Latino congregation, assholes. I hope this starts convincing people to question your tax-exempt status.
 8623 Polarstern, Thu, 7th Feb '13 11:36:18 AM from United States
Vericrat, you're kinda stating obvious things except one key point:

Depending on the country, their very word is an action.

Why else would we be posting what some guy at the Vatican said? It's just words? Except their very words influence millions, if not billions of people because the Vatican is the voice of God on Earth for Catholics.

Uganda had to release some very inflammatory and evil propaganda in order to get homosexuality a capital offence. Yes, the people voted and people responded accordingly in the international community.

Consider the dictatorships the world is still trying to get out. Or how Putin can "suggest" something in his weekly addresses that magically start happening.

As far as I know, the Queen of England can still make royal decrees just by saying it, though her scope is more limited than say the King of Jordan or the King of Morocco.

If a country is willing to take a verbal position on something, they will often assume a coordinating or support a coordinating action later. (Consider Israel/Palestine, Iran, and Indonesia) So by watching and condemning countries for their words, sometimes you can help prevent unfavorable actions. Sometimes you cannot.

But we try.

 8624 Achaemenid, Thu, 7th Feb '13 11:50:41 AM from the jetty, gazing at the sea. Relationship Status: You can be my wingman any time
[up]

Actually, no - HM The Queen cannot make or unmake any law without the consent of Parliament, and vice versa.
 8625 Meklar, Thu, 7th Feb '13 11:52:28 AM from Milky Way Relationship Status: RelationshipOutOfBoundsException: 1
Now, let's say the come in, I stare at them for a while and continue eating my meal. When finished, the server comes to bring the bill, and remarks at how cute the lesbian couple is. I make a remark like "Well, if you say so. Personally, I could've gone without seeing that."
...then why did you stare at them for a while? ;P

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