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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

Princess Ymir's knightess
Uhhhhh... you're acting quite petty, Morgi. :V

NCC - 1701
It's not an order. I'm asking you not to. And I'm telling you that should you choose to do it again, after having been warned, then whatever happens as a result is squarely on you.

Do with that what you will.
It was an honor
Princess Ymir's knightess
Hollering a mod? Because not sure what else you could do.

 7529 Morgikit, Sun, 20th Jan '13 12:25:00 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
Fine. I won't.

It's a sensitive subject for me, but clearly I crossed a line. I'm sorry.

edited 20th Jan '13 12:33:30 PM by Morgikit

"Morgi's thing is political activism, furriness, and being fudging adorable." - Enkufka
 7530 Drunk Girlfriend, Sun, 20th Jan '13 12:53:02 PM from Castle Geekhaven
@Silasaw: The debate is that we're saying that homosexuality (defined as having same-sex attractions) is predetermined and therefore not a choice, and have multiple studies backing this up. Starship is telling us that we're lying to get our way.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 7531 Lascoden, Sun, 20th Jan '13 1:06:51 PM from Missouri, USA
...
I think that there is still conflating of genetic inclination, and genetic determination. Inclination is what you're likely to do. Determination is what you are. You can be genetically inclined to develop cancer, meaning your chance of doing so increases. You are determined to have blue eyes, red hair, hell, having two legs. You cannot change these by simply willing them away. You'd need serious physical alterations. Therefore, if your are inclined to be homosexual, then you are more susceptible to environmental and hormonal factors. If your are determined to be homosexual, you could change it no easier then willing yourself to grow a third arm. You'd need much more then just wanting it really hard.

edited 20th Jan '13 1:07:31 PM by Lascoden

boop
 7532 Drunk Girlfriend, Sun, 20th Jan '13 1:52:19 PM from Castle Geekhaven
[up] I think that's part of it. I also think that he's using a Personal Dictionary to redefine the terms "gay", "homosexual", and "sexual orientation".

He seems to believe that your sexual orientation is determined by who you're actively sleeping with, and that's not true at all.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 7533 Lascoden, Sun, 20th Jan '13 1:56:59 PM from Missouri, USA
...
[up]And I think part of that comes from the difference in dictionary definitions, and common parlance. Both are correct definition wise, but one is more common in actual usage. And which one can vary according to location, social group, and other things. Language is imperfect and limited that way.

edited 20th Jan '13 1:57:44 PM by Lascoden

boop
 7534 Drunk Girlfriend, Sun, 20th Jan '13 2:00:36 PM from Castle Geekhaven
[up] The problem with that, is that we've clarified multiple times that the studies are specifically in regards to same-sex attraction, and not homosexual actions, yet he keeps talking as if it's the other way around, or assuming that it covers both, or that we're trying to expand the findings to cover homosexual actions, or something.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 7535 Lascoden, Sun, 20th Jan '13 2:03:46 PM from Missouri, USA
...
[up]Would it be possible to have some sort of rule, or guideline, for the thread that limits the word to one definition or the other?
boop
I want Kat's glasses!
Quoth Silasw:
Is anyone actually arguing against the idea that it's possible for a person to not follow through on their sexual orientation? Because that seems a rather silly argument to me.
I'm arguing that it's not possible for a person not to follow through on their sexual orientation without great emotional distress.

edited 20th Jan '13 2:12:52 PM by Medinoc

They Called Me Mad!! I decided to show them all; but when I looked on my works, oh mighty, I despaired: for it made me realize they were right.
 7537 Lascoden, Sun, 20th Jan '13 2:18:19 PM from Missouri, USA
...
[up]When you say "follow through", do you mean sexual actions, not just orientation? Are you saying that voluntary celibacy is unhealthy?
boop
Pirate Zombie
Well, look at the priesthood. tongue
I have a tumblr. Read at your own risk. Of what, I have no idea.
 7539 Drunk Girlfriend, Sun, 20th Jan '13 3:14:14 PM from Castle Geekhaven
[up] Well, the problem with the priesthood isn't voluntary celibacy, per se. It's more that it ends up as involuntary celibacy. Abstaining from sex is pretty neutral, and can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on the person and the circumstance.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 7540 Silasw, Sun, 20th Jan '13 3:37:07 PM from The UNITED Kingdom Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
@Silasaw: The debate is that we're saying that homosexuality (defined as having same-sex attractions) is predetermined and therefore not a choice, and have multiple studies backing this up. Starship is telling us that we're lying to get our way.

But, Starship just said that this was his argument.

ALL our inclinations and predispositions are set long before we start thinking in terms of conscious decision-making. We assume that doesn't mean you can't learn to control, repress, enhance, or adjust any of those.

Is everyone just talking past everyone else? I thought we only did that on Thursdays.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
 7541 Lascoden, Sun, 20th Jan '13 3:51:42 PM from Missouri, USA
...
[up]I think Starship is arguing that while it is predisposed, it can be changed or altered. I think that Silasw and Drunk Girlfriend are arguing otherwise, that it cannot be changed, and is a static trait.

Edit: I think. I could be off on that.

edited 20th Jan '13 3:53:36 PM by Lascoden

boop
 7542 deathpigeon, Sun, 20th Jan '13 3:54:09 PM from Bread, It Is Bread that the Revolution Needs! Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Kaspar the Friendly Spook
Personally, I think it's a trait which we have no conscious control over. It's not necessarily static, but the change isn't something under conscious control.
My Blog.

ACAB.

"The great are great only because we are on our knees. Let us rise." - Max Stirner
 7543 Silasw, Sun, 20th Jan '13 3:54:36 PM from The UNITED Kingdom Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
[up][up] See I was reading it as Starship saying that while it can't be changed it can be repressed. Which is true, now it's not in any way a good idea for a person to repress their sexuality, but it can be done.

edited 20th Jan '13 3:54:51 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
 7544 Lascoden, Sun, 20th Jan '13 3:59:03 PM from Missouri, USA
...
[up]I think that's where the "using different definitions" issue is coming up.
boop
 7545 Drunk Girlfriend, Sun, 20th Jan '13 4:18:25 PM from Castle Geekhaven
@Silasw: But he's also saying that the studies don't mean anything, and that being gay is still a choice. Hence my notion that he's using a different meaning for "gay" than the rest of the thread.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
 7546 Morgikit, Sun, 20th Jan '13 4:23:18 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
I realize I'm on thin ice right now, but I'd like to repeat my previous question: how does "There's some kind of biological component of sexual orientation" differ from "I did not deliberately choose my sexual orientation"? And how does one saying they're basically the same thing make one a liar, and therefore Not So Different from the homophobes who insist we do it just to anger god?
"Morgi's thing is political activism, furriness, and being fudging adorable." - Enkufka
Unchanging Avatar.
Difference between a component and the entire thing, I imagine.

Which is scientifically difficult to ascertain, but for the purposes of debate, what you just expressed were two different (though similar) arguments.
Except for 4/1/2011. That day lingers in my memory like...metaphor here...I should go.
 7548 drunkscriblerian, Sun, 20th Jan '13 5:32:15 PM from Castle Geekhaven Relationship Status: In season
Street Writing Man
Glad this is calming down a bit. I'd like to remind everyone that heated quibbling tends to attract the attention of mods with thread-padlocks.

This has been an Uncle Drunkie Public Service Announcement.
If I were to write some of the strange things that come under my eyes they would not be believed.

~Cora M. Strayer~
 7549 Morgikit, Sun, 20th Jan '13 5:38:46 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
Technically I can't speak for anyone else, but I can't control my biochemistry that I'm aware of. I could try to suppress my feelings, obviously. I could also flog myself to try to make the feelings go away. But there is no good reason why I should do either of those things.
"Morgi's thing is political activism, furriness, and being fudging adorable." - Enkufka
Princess Ymir's knightess
Sure I could choose not to date women and date men instead.

Just like I could choose to eat dog excrements instead of delicious ice cream!

But I don't think I'm going to do either. XD

edited 20th Jan '13 10:58:29 PM by kay4today

Total posts: 15,762
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