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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

 526 Carciofus, Wed, 2nd May '12 6:31:44 AM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
So is or is the Bible not a product of divine inspiration? Because that sounds a lot like you admitting the Bible is the ethics, health regulations and myths of some Jews and Greeks codified. If it were divinely inspired, couldn't that inspiration cause them to wake up one morning and say "oh, and by the way, the Lord hates it when you have gay sex"?
I replied in the Bible thread, in order to avoid derailing the discussion further.

edited 2nd May '12 6:32:10 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 527 Troll Post, Thu, 3rd May '12 2:36:15 AM from troll post crusher

 528 Kexruct, Thu, 3rd May '12 3:01:59 AM from Vvardenfell
nonarySpade
catholics idiots who give the good Catholics a bad name

ftfy
They call themselves seamstresses -Feet of Clay
 529 Loni Jay, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:04:05 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Uh, didn't we just have a discussion about that?
Be not afraid...
 530 Carciofus, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:09:49 AM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
That petition mixes issues:
Yet this is not even the worst evil of the Catholic Church. The worst evil of the Catholic Church is that it is using taxpayer dollars to promote a religion that is not shared by the majority of British Citizens, who involuntarily sponsor these schools.
That is a whole different — and complex — matter, that I will not even try to discuss here.
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

I don't really have a problem with religious people, it's just that for some reason when they talk about it IRL, it almost makes me have a panic attack.

Also this may be misconception, but e.g. the Pope has some pretty backwards ideas.
 532 Carciofus, Thu, 3rd May '12 4:19:28 AM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
It is fair to say that he has very traditionalist ideas. He actually faced more than a little criticism (I won't go into whether it is warranted or unwarranted) from within the Catholic Church itself for that.

edited 3rd May '12 4:19:41 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 533 Lawyerdude, Thu, 3rd May '12 7:14:25 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
The United Methodist Church has recently decided to affirm its stance against homosexuals as well. Linkage
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
 534 L Mage, Thu, 3rd May '12 8:20:29 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Swamp Witch
@Lawyer

Excuse me while I recoil in shock.

Really, this type of thing is only going to be the death of Christianity. It's drawing a line which more and more people are going to cross as reason and human compassion prevail.
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
Is that cake frosting?
Not that this is a justification; but as the article says, one of the reasons why that vote went that way is that the United Methodist Church has a lot of popularity in Africa, where mores are definitely far more conservative on this:
Thursday’s debate put the denomination’s wide diversity on display — as gays and lesbians pleaded for recognition of their “sacred worth” and an African delegate, speaking through an interpreter, compared homosexuality to bestiality.

This is a problem for all denominations with global ambitions — Methodism, Anglicanism, Catholicism, and so on. Mores in "the West" have changed very rapidly — and, I think, positively, as far as this topic is concerned — in the last decades; but in other parts of Earth, these changes are happening much more slowly, and perhaps not at all.
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 536 Lawyerdude, Fri, 4th May '12 12:26:42 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
You reap what you sow. Prejudice doesn't exist in a vacuum, it has to come from somewhere, and where do they think these anti-gay Christians get their beliefs from in the first place?
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
Is that cake frosting?
I did say that it is not a justification. I was just explaining one important aspect of the situation as it is now.

But I should also point out that many of these cultures were rather homophobic and/or sexist, or worse, before the introduction of Christianity.
But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 538 Lawyerdude, Fri, 4th May '12 12:49:22 PM from my secret moon base
Citizen
They were homophobic and sexist before Christianity and, if what we have here is any indication, they still are today. What does that say?
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
 539 Muramasan 13, Fri, 4th May '12 1:03:02 PM Relationship Status: Not war
Well, they may be a bit less sexist. But correlation doesn't imply causation. Just because they've improved slightly, even assuming that it was as a result of contact with Western culture, doesn't mean that Christianity had anything at all to do with said improvement.
Smile for me!
 540 Carciofus, Fri, 4th May '12 1:03:15 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
[up][up]That Christians are neither magical nor perfect. Stop the presses.

edited 4th May '12 1:03:40 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 541 L Mage, Fri, 4th May '12 1:21:28 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Swamp Witch
I think the point that is trying to be made is that Christianity has done quite a bit to perpetuate these flaws in society rather then counter them- which no one can reasonably deny.

This is supported by the complete lack of solid secular argument against homosexuality. Without Christianity, gay rights would have already prevailed.
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 542 Carciofus, Fri, 4th May '12 1:25:34 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
Without Christianity, gay rights would have already prevailed.
I am less than convinced of that. It is true that if Christianity had not been, for the most part, stuck on what (I perceive as) an incorrect position on this topic, it could have done a whole lot of good; but this does not imply that without it, things would have been better.

As far as I can tell, the parts of Africa in which Christianity has not penetrated do not really have more tolerant positions on the issue than the ones in which it is among the main religions. But I will admit, I have not studied this issue in depth.

edited 4th May '12 1:25:54 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 543 L Mage, Fri, 4th May '12 1:29:15 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Swamp Witch
[up]

I would argue that the striking down of Prop 8 proves that Christianity is the sole justification in the modern age, and that removing any religious connotation destroys the argument in question.

Of course I wouldn't argue that in a less (for lack of a better term) civilized and modern homophobia is bound to be rampart regardless of religion (after all it has to come from somewhere) but in the moderen world, Christianity is the sole reason for it's continued preparation.

edited 4th May '12 1:31:02 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 544 Aondeug, Fri, 4th May '12 1:31:30 PM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
Without Christianity? Really? When other religions and even without religion hatred and maltreatment of gays is a thing?

I think that without Christianity people would just find another reason to be assholes to gay people. And that it depends on the culture. Like say Thailand which is more or less split in two on the issue. "WHOO GAY PEOPLE ARE COOL" and "FUCK THEM THEY ARE BEING PUNISHED AND GROSS RARGH". The exact same religion is used to support both these sides. Hint. It's not Christianity and to call all of Asia "Not modern" is kind of bullshit. Then we have atheistic homophobes.

When it comes to being a dick for any reason and in any way humans will always find a reason and an excuse with or without religion. Because humans are assholes. They're also lovely and amazingly kind.

I have no faith in their ability to not be hateful without religion though. Nor with it. Individuals? Yes. But people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals.

edited 4th May '12 1:33:07 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
 545 Carciofus, Fri, 4th May '12 1:33:16 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
[up][up]Oh, I am not debating that the opposition to homosexual marriage, in the United States, is near-entirely religiously motivated, and by Christianity in particular.

But the world is not the United States. In my own homecountry, the most blatant displays of homophobia do not generally come from conservative Christians, but rather from extreme right fringes (bordering on "neofascists").

And as for Africa... well, as I said, I have not studied the argument in depth, but I do not think that the homophobia is entirely religiously motivated.

edited 4th May '12 1:33:56 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 546 Aondeug, Fri, 4th May '12 1:34:53 PM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
Really Carc? Huh. That's something I didn't know about Italy. Then again I know fuck all about Italy.

edited 4th May '12 1:35:18 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
 547 L Mage, Fri, 4th May '12 1:36:54 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: Brewing the love potion
Swamp Witch
@Car

Your lucky then, here in the US homophobia is the standard for Conservatives, who by default are right wing extremists (or else are considered "wishy-washy").
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 548 Troll Post, Fri, 4th May '12 1:37:03 PM from troll post crusher

 549 Carciofus, Fri, 4th May '12 1:38:03 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
[up][up][up]Yeah, we have a few rather nasty neofascist groups. They harass Jews, beat up gays, that sort of thing. It is a problem.

edited 4th May '12 1:39:04 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 550 Aondeug, Fri, 4th May '12 1:38:47 PM from  Our Dreams
Oh My
No. No it's not. Again Buddhism and other religions, or at times political positions and other philosophies detached from a religion, have been the reason for its existence in Asia.

^Gah... That sounds horrid.

Buddhism's justifications for the curious: "A punishment for accumulated negative kamma" and "A defiance against the Dhamma and natural purpose of humanity and sex". Neither appears within the canon. Nor do the defenses of "It doesn't cause dukkha. It is merely neutral. It is a hindrance to Enlightenment as it is sexuality however. But then so is heterosexuality."

edited 4th May '12 1:40:56 PM by Aondeug

If someone wants to accuse us of eating coconut shells, then that's their business. We know what we're doing. - Achaan Chah
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