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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

NCC - 1701
I wanted to make sure we're clear on this point. Us true Christians, the ones who love America, and our fellow Americans, will not permit this bullshit to go down here.

You have our word.
It was an honor
 5077 Morgikit, Wed, 14th Nov '12 5:38:15 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
I'd like to believe that Max. I really would.
Princess Ymir's knightess
Well, [1].

And I thought nothing could disgust me after the "rape your lesbians until they somehow become straight" campaign!

"True Christians" seem to be about as rare as True Scotsmen.

Euo will do!
[up][up]Silly Bunny, there is always something worse... Sadly enough. sad

edited 15th Nov '12 4:19:16 AM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
NCC - 1701
"True Christians" seem to be about as rare as True Scotsmen.

[tup] [awesome] [lol]!

Actually, the opposite is true. No matter how many people decry "those awful sadistic Christians" the numbers, the stats, and the studies all clearly show that your average American Christian, and I'd say probably Christians all over the world, are actually very normal and don't hold any strong aversion to anyone of any background.

As I've said repeatedly, the gay lobby makes it a point to sensationalize and headline nutjobs like that pastor who said gays should be put behind an electrified fence. Mind you, he wasn't actually suggesting concentration-camping gays, he was making a point about reproductive imperative.
It was an honor
 5082 Morgikit, Thu, 15th Nov '12 7:31:21 AM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
"The gay lobby" this, "the gay lobby" that. The Christian lobby likes to pretend LGB Ts are a super powerful conspiracy controlling everything, despite having more power than we've ever had. I'd say let them have their delusions if it makes them feel better, but they're making decisions based on these beliefs affecting the real world. Can't let that slide.
Euo will do!
[up]And, the "gay lobby" likes to pretend "the Church" is a single monolithic structure, the primary purpose of which is to crush them with a boot-heel.

Mordi, two can play the "they paint us terribly! And are wrong!" game with ample evidence of both having points. tongue It's the nature of In and Out Grouping.

edited 15th Nov '12 7:35:58 AM by Euodiachloris

"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 5084 Morgikit, Thu, 15th Nov '12 7:40:08 AM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
I didn't realize criticizing some Christians means you're attacking all of them. Thanks for clearing that up.
 5085 Drunk Girlfriend, Thu, 15th Nov '12 7:47:43 AM from Castle Geekhaven
[up] Hey, if they can't tell the difference between you criticizing the extreme members and you criticizing them, then maybe they need to be criticized too.
"I don't know how I do it. I'm like the Mr. Bean of sex." -Drunkscriblerian
Mind you, he wasn't actually suggesting concentration-camping gays, he was making a point about reproductive imperative.

Sure, let's give every bigoted whackjob the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn't really mean the horrible things they said. Then we can all be as stupid as this lady;

Just a Bug
Bluh! What the hell is even the point of this thread?
This is a robbery. Give me all of your money and I'll kill you.
 5088 Morgikit, Thu, 15th Nov '12 7:57:44 AM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
Almost forgot this:

the gay lobby makes it a point to sensationalize and headline nutjobs like that pastor who said gays should be put behind an electrified fence. Mind you, he wasn't actually suggesting concentration-camping gays, he was making a point about reproductive imperative.

Does it really matter why he said "put homosexuals behind fences"? There's no explanation for that statement that isn't stupid. So why stand up for him?
NCC - 1701
The Christian lobby likes to pretend LGB Ts are a super powerful conspiracy controlling everything, despite having more power than we've ever had.

I'd like to see where this assertion was made. I know I didn't. I said the gay lobby likes to sensationalize the more hardcore and phobic Christians and ignore the vast number of far more moderate Christians.

I can see the logic in this. The Christian whose reaction is "Gays marrying? Kinda squicks me out, but if it makes them happy..." isn't a threat. The Christian who believes subjecting gays to the Ludovico treatment is God's will is a threat. But it doesn't change the fact that that kind of fanatacism is decidedly the minority.

Sure, let's give every bigoted whackjob the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn't really mean the horrible things they said.

Does it really matter why he said "put homosexuals behind fences"? There's no explanation for that statement that isn't stupid. So why stand up for him?

I've come to find that there are those on these threads who not only think it a waste of time to examine statements from those who you disagree with to accurately ascertain their motives, but they are offended by the very thought that those who offend you might "gasp" have reasons for their views other than puppy-kicking villainy.

To answer your question Morg, if the end goal is simply sitting in ivory towers and mocking others, then no, there's no point in examining why he said "put homosexuals behind fences". If the end goal is learning how he thinks so that we can effectively communicate and thus achieve the equality we all claim to striving for, then yes, I believe it matters.

edited 15th Nov '12 8:23:39 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
[up]Here's the video of Worley;
There really isn't much room to interpret this as anything other than straight up bigotry. He makes his motives quite clear.

edited 15th Nov '12 8:41:20 AM by Talby

 5091 Morgikit, Thu, 15th Nov '12 9:12:54 AM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
Max, all I need to know is they are discriminating against us (both LGB Ts and more reasonable Christians) and we don't deserve it. But if you want to sit down with these people and attempt to reason with them (I say attempt because you won't succeed) I won't stop you. Clearly you're a more forgiving person than I am.
NCC - 1701
It's not about forgiveness Morg. I loathe the Phelps crowd at least as much as you.

That's why I'm so bent on trying to examine, understand, and parse meaning from these folks. Because the Phelps crowd DOESN'T DO THAT. If I resort to snap judgments and intellectual laziness, then I am sinking to the same bigoted level as the WBC people.

That cannot happen.

Beyond that, there are good people out there Morg. People who'd be as willing to die to put an end to bigotry as you or I. As Jor-El said "They only lack the light to show the way." It's the duty of you and me and all those who know better to provide that light.

If we don't, then we leave them open prey for Fred Phelps and his intellectually lazy ilk. Again, that cannot happen.

[up] The point I thought Pastor Worley was making (albeit in the most infantile way possible) was that if you took all homosexuals and put them in their own self-contained world, ostensibly they'd go extinct. On the surface of it, it makes sense. If you think past your nose, then it makes less sense.

But see, there's an opportunity to seized there. If gays have a reproductive disadvantage over straights, then why fear and hate them since they pose no real threat to you??

edited 15th Nov '12 9:24:55 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 5093 Radical Taoist, Thu, 15th Nov '12 9:25:24 AM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
There is something to be said for analysis. Know thine enemy.
NCC - 1701
Know thine enemy, that thou mayest defeat him. Know him better, and thou mayest find an ally.
It was an honor
 5095 Lawyerdude, Thu, 15th Nov '12 9:33:52 AM from my secret moon base
Citizen
[up] You're far more optimistic than I am. I think the best way to deal with people like Phelps, Worley, Dobson, Graham, and the rest of their ilk is to let time take care of them on its own.
What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly.
 5096 Radical Taoist, Thu, 15th Nov '12 9:34:27 AM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
With the utterly irrational fringe? Forget friendship, I'd settle for them just leaving LGBTQ the rest of the world alone. Choose your battles and all that.
 5097 Fish 1, Thu, 15th Nov '12 9:48:30 AM from Lovecraft Country
2 Fish
As you say Maxima, they're the minority. What need do we have to convince them, when it would be much more efficient to convince everyone else?

edited 15th Nov '12 9:49:06 AM by Fish1

Indeed.
 5098 Radical Taoist, Thu, 15th Nov '12 9:50:33 AM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
Divide and conquer. There's the opponents we want to befriend, the opponents whom we wish to make indifferent about the issue, and the opponents we wish to marginalize politically. It's just a matter of finding which category any given individual or group falls into.
NCC - 1701
And once again, my Tao friend speaks the truth.

But, there's another aspect to all of this. I'm a Christian. As such, I truly believe that NO ONE, not even Fred Phelps is beyond seeing the light. A central tenet of Christianity is that God can transform the staunchest skinhead into the most loyal missionary.

This is not a call for one to be stupid. If Pastor Worley were on these threads, I'd tell him to grow up.

But, because I feel that at any moment I'm talking to someone whom God hasn't enlightened yet, I try to treat them accordingly.
It was an honor
Euo will do!
[up][up][tup] That's the short form. smile
"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
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