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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

NCC - 1701
Okay let's expose the fallacies one by one.

That's what is happening, Nocturna. When you belief something is wrong, you will unintentionally or intentionally discriminate against them sooner or later. That's a fact.

A fact....where? Show me please. That is not what is happening; what is happening is that people who believe something is wrong and that they are above wrongdoing and have a right to appoint themselves judge and jury are unintentionally and intentionally discriminating against people. Now that is a fact.

Because people will bottle it up inside until it explodes.

Again, you need to get your distinctions right. There are some people who bottle things up. Others like me don't fear anyone so much that they won't give an honest answer if asked. If Kay asks me "Starship do you think I'm wrong to be in a lesbian relationship?", I'd answer her. If Fred Phelps asked me "Starship, do you think I'm a dick?", I'd say "Well Fred, dick's not the word I'd use. It's not quite strong enough."

Likewise, I'd like to note Adultery isn't always treated as a Sin.
Citation needed.

Beliefs are just as harmful as actions, especially when they're particularly harmful beliefs.
Logic fail, and one that's already been proven. A man who thinks blacks shouldn't be voting, vs. one who thinks blacks shouldn't be voting and blows up a polling place can't be called the same level of harm by any halfway competent thinker.

And this doesn't address the consistently wrong assumption that "I don't agree with this, but it's not my place to do anything about it, " is the same as "I don't agree with this and I have to stop it."

Maxima: Out of curiosity, do you acknowledge the threat beliefs can pose in the form of privilege and framing effects?

I most certainly acknowledge that, yes. I've seen the effects. Christians and heterosexuals got the idea in their heads that since they're normal and accepted that they now have the right to penalize people for daring to step out of those roles.

It's a disgrace. It's an abomination. It's to our shame (Christians) that not enough us did anything to stop it, and we'll have to face our Creator and answer for that act of cowardice.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:22:49 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
I'm an Irene!
No, Maxima, what you're not getting is that they're still both harmful.

You can think that the worse act is the only one deplorable, but guess what? The first lesser act will always happen first. The reason the belief needs to be stopped is that is the only way to stop the actions.

Stop it at the source, not react when the damage is done. I'm interesting in preventing the damage. That won't work outside of stopping the horrific beliefs.

And I can tell you right now that not every married couple is against trying things out with other ones. From personal experience, I've talked to those that have. Which means that not everybody treats Adultery as a Sin.

Note my exact wording; I did not say Culture, I said in general. Not everybody believes it's wrong whatsoever.(I disagree, but that's far from the point)

Everybody bottles up feelings, or lets them loose too early, and harms others in some way. Everybody has done it once, no matter what. Even Jesus did it. So yes, there's your citation right there. Jesus attacking a Church, the one who was trying to be perfect even made a mistake because of his beliefs.
 4528 Carciofus, Wed, 24th Oct '12 2:25:27 PM from Canterlot
Is that cake frosting?
As far as beliefs not being harmful, I do not entirely agree. They are not as harmful as actions, generally; but if they are wrong, they can certainly cause harm.

For example, if you are right and homosexuality is a sin, I am committing a wrong by saying that I don't believe it is and supporting not only civil gay marriage, but religious gay marriage too. I am literally encouraging people to sin, and the Bible has some very pointed things to say about people who do that. If that is the case, God will take me to task about this; and my only defense is that I am simply stating what I sincerely believe to be the case, and would certainly argue for the exact opposite position if I convinced myself otherwise.

But, if I am in the right and homosexuality is not a sin, you are committing a wrong here, by advocating that people make some very difficult (to them) sacrifices for no good reason at all. I do not doubt your good faith; but your belief is certainly not harmless either.

Ultimately, I think that there is no Christian who has it absolutely right, down to the tiniest details. We all try to do our best. But our mistakes are not harmless, I believe.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:26:47 PM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.

 4529 Radical Taoist, Wed, 24th Oct '12 2:27:34 PM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
I most certainly acknowledge that, yes. I've seen the effects. Christians and heterosexuals got the idea in their heads that since they're normal and accepted that they now have the right to penalize people for daring to step out of those roles.
Progress!

I don't believe that it is possible or desirable to somehow purge anti-homosexual beliefs; thought police are not the answer. I do think it's worth our while to attack anti-homosexual frames, and that does mean going after privilege: cis heterosexual Christian male privilege included. Which means going after, among other things, positions like yours. You understand, I trust.

EDIT:
It's a disgrace. It's an abomination. It's to our shame (Christians) that not enough us did anything to stop it, and we'll have to face our Creator and answer for that act of cowardice.
Wait. Aside from the assumed afterlife, which I reject of course, you're doing the "hold us to blame as a group instead of judging us as individuals" thing again. I don't play that game; my criticism of Pat Robertson is not my criticism of you and I won't conflate them.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:29:35 PM by RadicalTaoist

NCC - 1701
Stop it at the source, not react when the damage is done. I'm interesting in preventing the damage. That won't work outside of stopping the horrific beliefs.

I get that. Many in the gay lobby who want to silence anyone from saying homosexuality is wrong feel as you do, and for the same (noble) reason.

I'm saying you don't have the right to tell someone not to disapprove of your (proverbial) lifestyle. You certainly have no right to tell them to disagree with the Bible. And you certainly can't try to justify forcing your views on them by trying to say that you're doing to pre-empt some hypothetical act of discrimination. Especially when you continue to conflate two thoughts that are actually quite different.

Also, re Jesus getting mad in the temple, this is another case of not really getting what happened. Jesus never attacked a Church, he wasn't a terrorist. He specifically threw out the people who were using the Church to rip people off.

I don't know this, but I think the point was that sometimes, as Christians, it's okay to get a little dirty when you take out the garbage, so to speak.
It was an honor
Princess Ymir's knightess
Wait, no one has the right to tell you to disagree with the bible, but you have the right to tell people to stop pursuing a homosexual relationship?

I'm an Irene!
Actually, that is the point; He let the anger get the better of him. Having the authorities stop it would've been the peaceful act. He did not take it. He took the angry route. But he's a human like us and makes mistakes.

I do not believe getting dirty is a good thing. In fact, that's just "being as bad as them". However, it's true sometimes nothing else works. I won't lie about that.

But that misses the point I'm saying; I'm not talking about thought police. I'm talking about teaching people the right thing, which is that Homosexuality is not sinful in nature, and that what is sinful is not being true to yourself. Paul, funnily enough, condemns those who fake their sexuality. Specifically. Leviticus may be condemn homosexuality. That is a vague interpretation.

Paul is right in this case, but that's what should be taught, not conforming to a majority. But by being true to yourself. And when you teach people that Homosexuality is a Sin, something people are born with, you are saying people are born to suffer as a criminal. That's exactly why it needs to be stopped at the source.

Teaching people the right thing is not thought police. Those are entirely separate. In fact, stop thinking we are trying to silence that here. We're not. We're trying to stop the source of discrimination, the evil teachings of it.

[up] I believe he meant the opposite.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:34:54 PM by Hydronix

 4533 Radical Taoist, Wed, 24th Oct '12 2:34:36 PM from the #GUniverse
scratching at .8, just hopin'
I don't think he does, kay; Maxima's never told me I didn't have the right to go after the Bible (and his interpretation thereof) with both barrels. Which is good, because if he thought that, he'd be in for some disappointment.[lol]
NCC - 1701
Wait, no one has the right to tell you to disagree with the bible, but you have the right to tell people to stop pursuing a homosexual relationship?

No one has the right to "tell"..order...anyone to do anything. I have no problem with someone saying "Starship, only a moron would think a book written by desert tribes could be infallible."

Ordering me to ignore it is as much a crime as me ordering you to dump your girlfriend.

Wait. Aside from the assumed afterlife, which I reject of course, you're doing the "hold us to blame as a group instead of judging us as individuals" thing again. I don't play that game; my criticism of Pat Robertson is not my criticism of you and I won't conflate them.

There's a reason you and me can do business Taoist. But I meant, that far too many of us said and did nothing and let innocent people die. Scriblerian wasn't wrong when he pointed out that many Churches sat and said shit as blacks were dragged in chains, packed lack cheap sardines, then sold like X-box 360s at a yard sale.

We're as guilty as the Wermacht officers and German citizens who did nothing while a lunatic tried to drive an ethnic group to extinction.

Which ties to a response to you, Irene. The Bible says it is possible to be angry and not sin. I honestly believe in my heart, though I can't say for sure since it's not written there, that that episode of Jesus throwing out the loan sharks was done specifically to warn us against the crimes of cowardice I mentioned above.

Christians can't always sit and wait for someone else or 'the proper authorities' to handle shit. Sometimes, like the captain said in Rush Hour "we gotta remind the general public we can still blow shit up."

For kicks and lulz? No. But, let's say me and Morg are hanging out and somebody gives him shit cause he's gay. I could pray for the person to see reason. I could ask themm to chill. And I can do all that while saying "Why don't you shut the fuck up and get a life?"

It's like Christians have to be reminded that it's okay to get up in evil's face and tell it to back the fuck off.

edited 24th Oct '12 2:55:15 PM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 4535 shimaspawn, Wed, 24th Oct '12 2:53:20 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
We're not ordering you to ignore it. We're asking you to consider our points and the harm that your beliefs and your actions cause. I have no intention of forcing you to stop believing what you believe, but that doesn't mean I don't think you shouldn't really examine what you're doing.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
NCC - 1701
[up] I'd like to think I'm always open to examining my beliefs since as Carc put it so well, none of us get it 100% right.
It was an honor
 4537 shimaspawn, Wed, 24th Oct '12 2:59:39 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
And yet every time we give you things to question, you ignore them. You refute actual evidence with "no it isn't" and call that proof. That's not keeping an open mind. That's not a willingness to question. That's keeping a closed mind and assuming you know the answers without looking into actual evidence.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
I'm an Irene!
Yeah, I still interpret Jesus as acting human, and showing that he was not perfect, and made a simple mistake. Then again, only God himself is perfect, no human can be.

It's not just about moving on as is. It's about trying to avoid it in the first place. Especially discrimination.

And to be honest, Starship, you are not considering our points here. We are not talking about "bad Christians" here. We are meaning you, and how you are still harming us with your beliefs.

Likewise, you are also refusing to question why we do not believe something is as it says. Leviticus is my favorite example. You are not acknowledging that that homosexual sin might be something else. You are being intolerant.
Seeking for Light
@Lawyerdude (4522): That post was a specific response to Hydronix's assertion that everyone who thinks homosexual actions are wrong—even if they strongly support civil homosexual marriage, anti-discrimination, gay adoption, anti-gay-bullying, and leaving everyone else's personal (sexual) choices up to the person, etc.—are hateful and discriminatory. I wasn't trying to say the current situation regarding extra-marital heterosexual sex is exactly the same as or has all the same issues as the current situation regarding homosexual sex.

 4540 Morgikit, Wed, 24th Oct '12 3:49:35 PM from Lavender Town Relationship Status: In season
Queen of Foxes
I'm bisexual, actually. And if someone gets in my face about my orientation, I can tell them to fuck themselves on my own. Or does that make me part of the gay lobby thought police?
Nya

Tropers Riff Movies (7PM EST)
 4541 Deviant Braeburn, Wed, 24th Oct '12 3:54:24 PM from Dysfunctional California
Wandering Jew
gay lobby thought police

Somehow I will write a story based around this premise.
Everything is Possible.

But some things are more Probable than others.
JEBAGEDDON 2016

Euo will do!
[up]They just have to look simply fabulous in their uniforms.

<coughs>

Sorry, couldn't resist. You can shoot me. evil grin
"When all else failed, she tried being reasonable." ~ Pratchett, Johnny and the Bomb
 4543 Pykrete, Wed, 24th Oct '12 4:53:51 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
Aw, I was hoping the inevitable tasteless joke would be about planting subconscious interior decorating advice.

-also shot-

edited 24th Oct '12 4:54:32 PM by Pykrete

 4544 Black Humor, Wed, 24th Oct '12 6:41:57 PM from Zombie City
This is from several pages ago, but, I have no clue how anyone could ever think the Bible is anything but intensely violent.

Take this passage from Deuteronomy*:

Deuteronomy 32:41-43 I will take vengeance on my adversaries and repay those who hate me. '''I will make my arrows drunk with blood, while my sword devours flesh: the blood of the slain and the captives, the heads of the enemy leaders.”'''

Rejoice, you nations, with his people, for he will avenge the blood of his servants; he will take vengeance on his enemies and make atonement for his land and people.

The NT doesn't really help you, either, because Jesus *specifically* rejects your interpretation:

Matthew 10:34-36 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’

(Also see the hundreds and hundreds of items on this list.)

Also, I remember you saying "The Bible doesn't support "Yes Massah Boss!" slavery in any way shape or form. " But even putting Paul aside, the OT clearly does:

Leviticus 25:44-46 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:20-21 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.

And of course exemplifying the worst of both these tendencies is Numbers 31:

31 Then the Lord said to Moses, 2 “On behalf of the people of Israel, take revenge on the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. After that, you will die and join your ancestors.”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Choose some men, and arm them to fight the Lord’s war of revenge against Midian. 4 From each tribe of Israel, send 1, 000 men into battle.” 5 So they chose 1, 000 men from each tribe of Israel, a total of 12, 000 men armed for battle. 6 Then Moses sent them out, 1, 000 men from each tribe, and Phinehas son of Eleazar the priest led them into battle. They carried along the holy objects of the sanctuary and the trumpets for sounding the charge. 7 They attacked Midian as the Lord had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. 8 All five of the Midianite kings—Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba—died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword.

9 Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. 11 After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, 12 they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho. 13 Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. '''14 But Moses was furious with all the generals and captains[a] who had returned from the battle.

15 “Why have you let all the women live?” he demanded. 16 “These are the very ones who followed Balaam’s advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the Lord at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the Lord’s people. 17 So kill all the boys and all the women who have had intercourse with a man. 18 Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.''' 19 And all of you who have killed anyone or touched a dead body must stay outside the camp for seven days. You must purify yourselves and your captives on the third and seventh days. 20 Purify all your clothing, too, and everything made of leather, goat hair, or wood.”

[editing out a boring part involving ritual purification of gold]

25 And the Lord said to Moses, 26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family leaders of each tribe are to make a list of all the plunder taken in the battle, including the people and animals. 27 Then divide the plunder into two parts, and give half to the men who fought the battle and half to the rest of the people. 28 From the army’s portion, first give the Lord his share of the plunder—one of every 500 of the prisoners and of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, and goats. 29 Give this share of the army’s half to Eleazar the priest as an offering to the Lord. 30 From the half that belongs to the people of Israel, take one of every fifty of the prisoners and of the cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats, and other animals. Give this share to the Levites, who are in charge of maintaining the Lord’s Tabernacle.” 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the Lord commanded Moses.

32 The plunder remaining from everything the fighting men had taken totaled 675, 000 sheep and goats, 33 72, 000 cattle, 34 61, 000 donkeys, 35 and 32, 000 virgin girls.

36 Half of the plunder was given to the fighting men. It totaled 337, 500 sheep and goats, 37 of which 675 were the Lord’s share; 38 36, 000 cattle, of which 72 were the Lord’s share; 39 30, 500 donkeys, of which 61 were the Lord’s share; 40 and 16, 000 virgin girls, of whom 32 were the Lord’s share. 41 Moses gave all the Lord’s share to Eleazar the priest, just as the Lord had directed him.

42 Half of the plunder belonged to the people of Israel, and Moses separated it from the half belonging to the fighting men. 43 It totaled 337, 500 sheep and goats, 44 36, 000 cattle, 45 30, 500 donkeys, 46 and 16, 000 virgin girls. 47 From the half-share given to the people, Moses took one of every fifty prisoners and animals and gave them to the Levites, who maintained the Lord’s Tabernacle. All this was done as the Lord had commanded Moses.

[again, skipping boring stuff mostly involving ritual purification]

It's really really clear from even a cursory overview of the Bible that it is quite a violent book. Not all of it is necessarily unjustified, but nearly none of it can even possibly be construed as self-defense. God himself takes revenge on his enemies several times, and endorses that the Israelites should ALSO take revenge on their enemies.
I'm convinced that our modern day analogues to ancient scholars are comedians. -0dd1
 4545 Loni Jay, Wed, 24th Oct '12 10:41:52 PM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Er... Starship, I don't like to harp, but I mentioned a couple of Bible passages last time I popped up in here that, in my opinion, you don't take literally. Now I've come back and you didn't answer me. It does seem an awful lot like you're dodging my questions. Considering that you keep declaring that A) you don't disregard anything written in the bible, and B) that you are not dodging anybody's questions, well...

Be not afraid...
 4546 Silasw, Thu, 25th Oct '12 2:48:03 AM from UK :( Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Globalist Bunny
To be fair to Starhsip (who do half my posts in this thread start like that?) it is pretty much him versus the rest of the thread, so it's entirely possible that your post got lost in the stamped (it's happened to me several times).
"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael

"A nuclear powered magnet death ball is perfectly scientifically possible." ~ Discar
 4547 Loni Jay, Thu, 25th Oct '12 3:00:11 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Yeah, that would make sense. Can't blame a guy for missing one person out of the crowd of people dogpiling on him tongue
Be not afraid...
NCC - 1701
And to be honest, Starship, you are not considering our points here. We are not talking about "bad Christians" here. We are meaning you, and how you are still harming us with your beliefs.

And yet every time we give you things to question, you ignore them. You refute actual evidence with "no it isn't" and call that proof. That's not keeping an open mind. That's not a willingness to question. That's keeping a closed mind and assuming you know the answers without looking into actual evidence.

And once again, I'll start by asking you to demonstrate evidence of this. Meanwhile, again, I'll review what's actually taken place.

I, like everyone else here, has certain assumptions. When asked why I'll give reasons. Certain people will then actually address those reasons and present reasons why they disagree with those reasons.

And then we have others, and I'm sorry to say you're one of the primary examples of this, Shima, whose only response to a presented fact, reason, or logic, is to dismiss it and say "it doesn't count". Or, when asked what makes their opinion a fact, offer no explanation and simply carry on.

For example "We know that your beliefs harm us." No matter how many times the obvious logic failures in that belief have been presented, no matter how many times you fail to offer facts that would lend that belief credence, you insist on holding it.

Another example, "You're cherry-picking the Bible". No matter how many times I've gone step-by-step to present the internally consistent logic that would allow one to read the complete Bible and not find it contradictory, you insist on saying "Well, that's not it."

Now that's fine, don't get me wrong. People accept and don't accept facts all the time. But once you demonstrate, as you have, that you're not willing to examine your own logic or someone else's, that you simply want others to think as you do, then I don't really see what conversation we can have.

Yeah, that would make sense. Can't blame a guy for missing one person out of the crowd of people dogpiling on him tongue

Dogpiling? Naw. Dogpiling is being compared to Neo-Nazis because you don't want to sleep with a transwoman. Now that's some Godwinning right there.

I actually did respond, though I didn't address it to you. I don't see the big deal in women not being allowed to be preachers or head Churches. So, no, I fully agree with the Bible on that, as I do with everything else.

I'm also saying the Bible didn't say women shouldn't get paid as much as men for their work, or that it's okay to rape them if you're married to them or otherwise in a committed relationship, that's it's okay to call them 'bitch' or that they can't lead countries, companies, sports teams, armies, etc.

edited 25th Oct '12 6:24:59 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
 4549 Loni Jay, Thu, 25th Oct '12 6:39:33 AM from Australia Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
... No, Starship, you haven't addressed the passages I brought up. I guess you missed them when I posted them, so here they are.

"Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." Corinthians 1

This isn't saying that women can't preach, it's saying we can't speak at all.

"But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head {...} A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man." Corinthians 1

(As far as I'm aware these are the correct verses; I got them from the wikipedia page on St Paul.)

How can you read this, Starship, and say that it is compatible with viewing men and women as equals? It outright says that men are in 'the image and glory of God' but women are not. Do you believe that women are not made in the image and glory of God?

Either admit that this particular verse is incorrect, or say that you think women are inferior to men.

edited 25th Oct '12 6:43:22 AM by LoniJay

Be not afraid...
NCC - 1701
No, Loni Jay, I choose to Take a Third Option. Women are different from men, not inferior. As I recall Israel had at least one female judge so there's that.

Now, I do admit I totally missed the part about women being completely silent in Church, I've never seen that in any Church I've gone to. If cornered, then I suppose a Church that has women 'speaking' is somehow doing it wrong. Does this mean that a woman who is speaking with the full endorsement of her husband is sinning, i.e. a preacher's wife who's specifically been asked to share something with the congregation, you got me on that one.

Also, your second passage. How you get women are inferior from 'woman is the glory of man while man is the glory of God', I don't know. It seems to me that God is saying clearly, that both are to be glorified simply in a different way.

But let's say you chalk all that up to "mental gymnastics". Fair enough.

What is the Bible saying women can't do? The verses you and others are harping on refer to women in Church services and women praying or prophesying with their heads covered. I don't see where women aren't allowed to vote, run companies, serve in the military, have jobs, or do anything else.

This is what I'm talking about when I talk about this seeming need to shoehorn some sort of misogynist bent into the text that isn't there.

If you find it that offensive that women can't talk in church and have to cover their heads when they pray, well, I can't do anything about that. But applying my literal interpretation of the Bible consistently will not, I believe, yield a world of men who look down on women and treat them as less than.

Edit: Oh yes, I did mention in another thread a while ago that yes, I believe in a marriage a woman should be in submission to a man based on Scripture, and I further explained that that didn't mean you can bully your wife into doing your bidding.

It was an honor
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