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Total posts: [15,804]
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LGBT Rights and Religion:

Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

 1 L Mage, Sat, 7th Apr '12 4:37:20 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
With Mod Hat On
Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 2 Best Of, Sat, 7th Apr '12 4:45:04 PM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
With Mod Hat On
I'm gonna be following this thread, I hope people can keep things civil.

[down]Done.

edited 7th Apr '12 4:48:44 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
 3 setnakhte, Sat, 7th Apr '12 4:47:51 PM from inside your closet
That's terrifying.
just a quick note before things start: the a and u in the word homosexuality in the title are backwards, can a mod fix this?
"Roll for whores."
 4 Joesolo, Sat, 7th Apr '12 4:55:51 PM Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo-Claus
[up][up] Not surprising. Threads like this need to be kept civil.

So, to start off on the more positive side of this, I really think most religious people don't really mind. From personal experience, I know a lot of pretty strict Catholics and we really don't mind it. One of my Cousin's even gay and there no problems about it at all, aside from the government not letting her girlfriend stay in the country more than a few months since they werent married.

On a personal level, I really don't think it's up to us to judge. If you really believe in God, according to Christianity(and some other religions have a similar thing), it's up to him to deal with them. at the most, tell them your beliefs. If they don't show interest, they're not going to change from persistence.

We should just all leave each other be.
Happy Lifeday, one and all!
Decemberist
All I know is that my Church is struggling with the concept of accepting Homosexuality because my church is split into 3 factions; the Liberal North, the Conservative North and the Conservative south.

The Liberal North are happy with Gay and Women Priests, and are happy with Gay Marriage. Whereas the other 2 factions are opposed to that.

It is threatening to schism the Anglican Church because the Liberal North doesn't like the other 2 factions and the Conservative North are deserting the Church for Roman Catholicism which is seen by us as dogmatically out of touch with the rest of European Society.
Dutch Lesbian
 6 Enkufka, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:05:08 PM from Bay of White fish
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
Statistics on support for gay marriage in america (as of 2010):

  • White Evangelical: 20% support, 74% oppose
  • white Mainline: 49% support, 38% oppose
  • Black Protestant: 28% favor, 62% oppose
  • White Catholic: 49% support, 41% oppose
  • Hispanic Catholic: 42% support, 43% oppose
  • Jewish: 76% support, 18% oppose
  • Unaffiliated: 62% support, 28% oppose

  • attendance:
    • weekly or more: 24% support, 68% oppose
    • Monthly/yearly: 49% support, 40% oppose
    • Seldom/Never: 59% support, 29% oppose

Source

edited 7th Apr '12 5:09:26 PM by Enkufka

Very big Daydream Believer.

"That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray

"Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry
 7 Joesolo, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:06:31 PM Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo-Claus
[up][up] Thats odd, considering the majority of Europe is Catholic.

edited 7th Apr '12 5:07:02 PM by Joesolo

Happy Lifeday, one and all!
 8 L Mage, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:07:24 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Evil Trickster
@Joe

I tend to agree that the "everyone does their own thing" is probably the most ideal solution, but it tends not to be realistic. There are homosexual men and women born into Religious families all over the world, that will lose huge chunks of their life and their connection to their family because of something completely beyond their control. I myself was baptized Catholic but while my family beyond that was never very religious I do have cousins that are, and that would be torn apart by if faced with this conflict.

edited 7th Apr '12 5:16:40 PM by LMage

"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
Decemberist
Thats odd, considering the majority of Europe is Catholic.

Do you have a source on that because a lot of Europe is now secular.
Dutch Lesbian
 10 Oh So Into Cats, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:30:15 PM from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Jewish: 76% support, 18% oppose

Unaffiliated: 62% support, 28% oppose

Huh. That is a bizarre statistic.

edited 7th Apr '12 5:30:38 PM by ohsointocats

 11 L Mage, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:31:47 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Evil Trickster
[up]

Not really, as a Religion the Jewish Faith tends to be in support of gay rights, and doesn't really seem to preach against homosexuality at all.
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 12 Best Of, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:40:14 PM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
Thats odd, considering the majority of Europe is Catholic.

According to Wikipedia, about 52% of the citizens of EU states believe in God. A much larger percentage are members of religious groups, though, so that shows that based on membership alone, one would have a much higher estimate of the influence of religion than one has when one looks at polls.

This link should take you right to a nice diagram that shows answers to the question "Does religion occupy an important place in your life?" with the majority opinion apparently being "no." Turkey was the country where people on average consider religion the most important, and the largest (by population) EU country that had a majority answering "yes" to that question was Italy. Countries where the majority doesn't answer "yes" include: Germany, France, the UK, Russia, the Netherlands, the Nordic countries, Switzerland and the Czech Republic.

The 2005 Eurobarometer poll ... found that on total average, of the EU 25 population, 52% "believe in a God", 27% believe in "some sort of spirit or life force" and 18% had neither of these forms of belief.

I think these statistics might be of interest to this thread.

Catholicism is the largest church in Europe: 38% of Europeans are Catholic, though as the above statistics prove, a large portion of them don't care about the church and are only members because they were baptised as children.

edited 7th Apr '12 5:47:02 PM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
 13 Joesolo, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:43:26 PM Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo-Claus
I read some things that said that. The site I read the "majority" thing from was either out of date or the misuderstood largest vs. majority. I knew something was up when no other sites supported it.

the Large percentage of "only because they were baptized" is just sad...
Happy Lifeday, one and all!
 14 Oh So Into Cats, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:43:57 PM from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
[up][up] Well it mostly seems bizarre because it seems like people unafilliated would care less.

 15 Best Of, Sat, 7th Apr '12 5:48:48 PM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
Note: I had to edit my post 'cause I had made a mistake: the article said that Europe had 26% of the World's Catholics, not that 26% of Europeans are Catholic. The correct figure (which was right next to one I copied) was about 38%.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
 16 L Mage, Sat, 7th Apr '12 7:20:21 PM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Evil Trickster
Continuing on: I've heard a great many arguments, the only a handful in depth, as to why the current widespread opposition to homosexuality and gay rights by the Christian community is hypocritical to the teachings of Christ/Jesus, or even invalid and baseless. One such argument was a possible mistranslation in the infamous Leviticus passage, where it apparently the translation for "Man" actually should be "a underage boy" or "boy that has not undergone a Bar Mitzvah" in it's original Hebrew. Can anyone elaborate on this argument?
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
 17 shimaspawn, Sat, 7th Apr '12 9:22:46 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
Well, as the Bible when taken as a whole supports gay marriage and condemns those who would attempt to change their sexuality from what they know it to be, I would say that religion should be far more tolerant of it than it actually is.

Sadly though, there are many sections that have been mistranslated by biased editors specifically to decry it because the translators think it's wrong. This is most common in modern translations oddly. The one section that does say it's not customary only applies to Jews, not to Gentiles.

This video explains it better:

edited 7th Apr '12 9:24:04 PM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 18 L Mage, Sun, 8th Apr '12 9:47:20 AM from Miss Robichaux's Academy Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
Evil Trickster
What I am most interested in hearing from our various Religious tropers: Scripture non-withstanding, why do you think God condemns Homosexuality? What do you believe is the purpose of the ruel? Why do you think it is defined as a sin?
"You are never taller then when standing up for yourself"
I'm indifferent!
I never really understood what all the fuss was about. :/ If God doesn't want you to be homosexual...then don't be homosexual, although I personally find suppressing your true desires about something that doesn't hurt others (Unless they're into that sort of thing, and you're both consenting adults) to be unhealthy, if not dangerous. But it's not like you have a right to protest against homosexuality, or whatever it is people do these days. I mean, I'm Jewish, but I don't run around banning pork. God can have an opinion, but if he wants to ban Gay Marriage or whatever he can come down here, get citizenship in the nation in question, and vote the old fashioned way. I'm pretty sure it's illegal to bribe people to vote a certain way, and heaven seems like a pretty big bribe.
You know what I hate? Hypocrites. That and obscure self-referential statements.
Moar and Moar and Moar
Well, I'm not religious, but I mean there are a few ways to look at it. When the Bible was written, a lot of those things made a lot more sense. Population was a real concern in a lot of place, more children was a good thing and something that was to be encouraged. But circumstances change.

By the way, the answer to your questions is No, Yes, Yes. No they morally shouldn't but the religion is more or less pretty clear on the whole thing. That's not to say that most people believe these things..I don't think they do. I do think that a large chunk of the opposition to homosexuality is less about homosexuality and more about throwing weight around.

@Whale Yeah, from what I hear the Anglican church is going through some massive upheaval. It's a global thing too, it's happening in the US as well. The short-hand version for those who haven't heard about it is that the currently dominant faction in the South (and I mean South as in Southern Hemisphere. Again this is global) doesn't like the way the more progressive faction in the North does things and are trying to throw their weight around creating divisions in the religion.

Note on "Unaffiliated", that's not so much non-believers but believers that do not go to a church. There's a big number of them actually.

@Best Of:I honest don't really trust poll questions of that nature that much. A lot of people who believe in a "spirit or life force" (I.E. have pantheistic beliefs) still call it "God".

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
 21 Best Of, Sun, 8th Apr '12 11:03:31 AM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
[up]This graph is from the Wikipedia article I linked; I think you'll find it interesting.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
 22 Pykrete, Sun, 8th Apr '12 3:15:04 PM from Viridian Forest
NOT THE BEES
When the Bible was written, a lot of those things made a lot more sense. Population was a real concern in a lot of place, more children was a good thing and something that was to be encouraged.

Not to mention anal sex is really freaking dangerous in the context of wandering desert nomads with limited understanding of hygiene. Just like, you know, half the other things the holiness code condemns that we don't give a shit about anymore.

 23 Best Of, Sun, 8th Apr '12 3:16:52 PM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
I saw some statistic somewhere that said that a larger percentage of heterosexual couples has tried anal sex than that of gay man couples.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
 24 inane 242, Sun, 8th Apr '12 3:32:28 PM from A B-Movie Bildungsroman
Anwalt der Verdammten
Really?

Wouldn't surprise me if it was true.
 25 Best Of, Sun, 8th Apr '12 4:25:26 PM from Finland Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
So this is off-topic and I'm not gonna go much further with this and don't expect responses to this post. I'm just giving you a little bit of data.

According to Wikipedia (you gotta read on to find the figures for homosexual anal sex, ) the estimates of how prevalent anal sex is among gay men vary, but the impression I got from all that was that these days, a bit over a half of gay men have engaged in anal sex.

For heterosexuals, a bit over a third of the men surveyed and a bit under a third of the women have engaged in anal sex. So it is more prevalent among gay men than it is among heterosexual couples now, but apparently the statistics were reversed a hundred years ago, so this is something that fluctuates a lot. I don't think anyone's surprised by that.
Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
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