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Unclear Description (page action crowner 3/21/14): Quirky Bard get usage counts

I think we have a clear path to go here.

 77 Willbyr, Mon, 23rd Sep '13 5:57:05 AM from North Little Rock, AR Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
With Mod Hat On
Indeed; calling for Quirky Bard.
 78 Septimus Heap, Sat, 28th Sep '13 2:57:00 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
I've moved the page text and the indexes, as well as made the notifications, but I won't take the wicks right now. Also, seems like the topic is already starred; you can ignore the request then.

I took it off the Scrappy Index because it does not seem to me that its inclusion is justified by anything other than "People don't like this trope", which seems a tad little for an index.

 79 Larkmarn, Tue, 5th Nov '13 10:45:31 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
So... the discussion page is full of people dissatisfied with the name change. And some of them bring up good points; the new name (while a vast improvement) does nothing to really clarify what the trope is (An ineffectual Gimmick Class). It does, at least, make it much less likely for it to be misused for The Bard, which is a huge improvement.

 80 Septimus Heap, Thu, 5th Dec '13 12:12:50 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
So ... considering what was said above, do we continue with the rename process?

 81 Larkmarn, Thu, 5th Dec '13 11:06:38 AM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you

edited 5th Dec '13 11:07:32 AM by Larkmarn

 82 Septimus Heap, Sun, 5th Jan '14 1:32:46 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
Bumping this for more input.

 83 Septimus Heap, Wed, 5th Feb '14 1:43:34 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
Puʻu ʻŌʻō
And again requesting more commentary.

 84 the Adeptrogue, Thu, 6th Feb '14 4:54:11 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
For (Food) Science!
Well, to be honest, the description of the Quirky Bard is too long-winded for me to really understand what the class actually means, but if the Laconic are accurate, they appear to be very similar to Mechanically Unusual Class, with a touch of Joke Character or Lethal Joke Character.

Some of the posts in the discussion page suggested a merge... The former has more wicks and inbounds, but the latter seems much clearer in its name and description... maybe turn this page into a subtrope of Gimmick Class (since it's apparently limited to bards)?

edited 6th Feb '14 7:51:39 PM by theAdeptrogue

Why don't we repurpose it to describe the typical role or mechanical implementation of the "Bard" archetype—the most typical features being a jack-of-all-trades skillset, Magic Music that tends to grant Status Effects, and generally filling a Support role of some kind—and thwack it with the Tropes Are Not Bad stick so it's not restricted to Bards Done Poorly? It's a tropable trope and this page is already very close to it.

edited 12th Feb '14 6:05:39 PM by troacctid

Rhymes with "Protracted."
 86 the Adeptrogue, Wed, 12th Feb '14 7:31:00 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
For (Food) Science!
[up]Isn't that what this trope is already about?

Maybe. It would need revamping either way, though; the description is actively wrong and Quirky Bard doesn't work as a title.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 88 Shanghai Slave, Thu, 27th Feb '14 3:27:36 AM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
I just realized something.

I made a YKTTW that tackles "a gimmick unit made useless by gameplay mechanics", But More Specific.

evidence of this definition in the description:

The class doesn't need to be called "bard" to count: any character class that specializes in messing with status effects in a game where status effects are useless or giving ability point bonuses or penalties that are too minor to make up for not simply making another fighter can count. Keep in mind that simply having a "Bard" type class is not sufficient - they have to be spoony bards: characters with useless abilities that typically nobody will want to use a party slot on.

do these characterstics fit Spoony Bard by virtue of the snippet?

Grave Buster.

it has the following characteristics:

it's purpose is to remove obstacles which block your artillery units' fire.

  • cost 0 resources.
  • takes a few seconds to remove obstacles.
  • long cooldown.

that are made useless by the following gameplay mechanics.
  • there are plenty of units available that can shoot through obstacles. meaning having them around is a waste of a unit slot.
  • they are useless in challenges where you cannot lose a unit, because using them counts as a loss(they disintegrate after usage).
  • obstacles are only found in early levels, meaning you'll never need to use them again after finishing those levels.

in other words, a unit which is redundant, situational, and a liability.

here is my suggestion on how to fix this:

dewick everything, remove all examples, make a new one with a revamped description to remove any references to "spoony" or "bard". the name is solely a Fandom In Joke (and Trope-Namer Syndrome at it's finest) that cluttered the description with pointless references to the bard (which isn't what it's about in the first place) that doesn't clear up the trope meaning that doesn't work anymore due to how big TV Tropes is now.

Spoony Bard itself as a Take That on bards in general seems tropable, so Spoony Bard should come back with that definition. that way, we get a "fun trope" and a proper trope.

and yes, I'm suggesting this precisely because I'm willing to make the page if no one else steps up. beware Engrish though.

as for Mechanically Unusual Class, it doesn't need references to the bard or any entertainment profession, it promotes shoehorning (A class called Blade Dancer? Mystical Minstrel? it must be MUC! except they're a regular DPS class and Black Mage with tacked on gimmicks that don't really change the core gameplay of the class). it must concentrate on establishing the fact that the class works and not what stuff we can shoehorn to it.
Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
 89 StarSword, Thu, 27th Feb '14 10:27:09 AM from somewhere in deep space Relationship Status: In denial
SF-81A Black Knight
[up]Seems like a usable proposal.
 90 the Adept Rogue, Thu, 27th Feb '14 10:07:14 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
For (Food) Science!

But we do need a trope for bards.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 92 Shanghai Slave, Thu, 27th Feb '14 10:47:04 PM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
[up] all part of The Plan, it will be called Spoony Bard.

what is now known as Quirky Bard will be the game trope, which will not mention bards at all.
Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
I mean a trope about bards that's not a Take That.
Rhymes with "Protracted."
 94 Larkmarn, Fri, 28th Feb '14 3:33:32 PM Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
... isn't The Bard a trope about bards?

 95 the Adeptrogue, Fri, 28th Feb '14 11:30:48 PM Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
For (Food) Science!
[up]Unless he's talking about Bard-Class characters in RPGs?

edited 28th Feb '14 11:31:13 PM by theAdeptrogue

 96 Shanghai Slave, Thu, 6th Mar '14 9:00:39 PM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
so, anything new?
Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?
Not impressed with the new title- it's not really better in terms of clarity, and is considerably more boring. Plus, as others have noted, there's way too many references to the old title all over.

edited 10th Mar '14 10:00:00 AM by DrVillainous

This entire situation is kind of a mess. As written, the Quirky Bard page is torn between whether it refers to quirky characters who are bards (as the bulk of the main description implies) or classes that are simply unusual (as most of the examples and the Laconic description indicate). I am for delegating unusual classes to Mechanically Unusual Class like they really should be in the first place (since as-is this seems like flat-out redundancy without a meaningful distinction) and re-purposing Quirky Bard to be the intuitive and much-needed character trope. As far as Quirky versus Spoony, I feel like Spoony has more character to it and is definitely far more ingrained in this wiki's culture, but Quirky is probably more self-evident. Someone really just needs to make a command decision at this point.

Changing the name to 'Quirky Bard' does nothing to fix the problems that this trope has acquired, nor does it mesh well with the page itself. The definition (dictionary definition) of the words Spoony Bard are right under the thread title!

The page itself, from the definition to the examples presented, are what needs to be fixed. The title itself? Nothing big at all.

I feel this site has gotten a tad too trigger happy with the name changes, but I exaggerate. Changing names should be one of our last resorts, especially when we have had it for so long.

P.S.: If we do make a name change, it damn well better be clever. A name that blatantly describes the trope in question is bland.
 100 Shanghai Slave, Fri, 21st Mar '14 8:24:05 AM from YKTTW Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
We're not changing the name, but making a new trope for spoony bard and the current "Quirky Bard". I guess I'll holler for a new crowner, so we can get this over with.
Is dast der Zerstorer? Odar die Schopfer?

Page Action: Quirky Bard
21st Mar '14 9:41:25 PM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Total posts: 116
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