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Split and/or Create Supertrope: Zettai Ryouiki get usage counts

 76 lu 127, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 10:36:07 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I don't think ccoa was addressing you personally, Vyc.

I'm very skeptical on this concept myself.
小さく揺れた向日葵
Cure Candy
[up][up][up][up] Most of those you posted there I think are just coincidental or just symbolic of the really young (Full House... seriously? that is a serious can of worms.)

Those in this trope are all in the standard Anime Fanservice range (with actual adults who float into this get clips and other Stocking Filler stuff.)

There are girls like Chika in B Gata H Kei who use this trope to her full advantage. [1]

edited 3rd Apr '12 10:45:38 AM by Raso

◥▶◀◤
I'm not saying no western examples per se myself. I'm saying we should be careful with examples from the west to be honest, the views are very different. Different enough to warrant there being two separate pages one for ZR and one for the western view of stockings.

Also the Full House is absurd I agree. If I saw that on this page I'd cut it without a thought or mention.

edited 3rd Apr '12 10:41:55 AM by Vyctorian

Rarely active, try DA/Tumblr Avatar by pippanaffie.deviantart.com
 79 ccoa, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 10:41:04 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
So what is this difference? Not of stockings, but of ZR specifically.

I'm not certain what's so ludicrous about Full House - the character is old enough for it not be squicky, but young enough that she's fair game for "soft" fanservice. If it were an anime, there'd be no question she fit. (EDIT: for reference, the character is in her late teens in the last season)

edited 3rd Apr '12 10:43:28 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 80 shimaspawn, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 10:41:46 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
All right, the difference between Western and Eastern uses are simple. The Eastern uses are separated by grade and each grade has a specific personality type or types attached to it.
  • Grade S: Tsundere, mid thigh, twintails, personality. This combination is a common expy design. It's the most codified of the grades.
  • Grade A: Socks mid thigh. More sexually aggressive, but with a hint of innocence and vulnerability to her. More common in dere type characters. More likely to be the darker of the love interests. Tends to be a little more worldly.
  • Grade B: Socks right over the knee. More innocent, less sexually aggressive. More likely to be the innocent girl next door type. Tends to be a little more innocent.

Yes, it's really that specific. Yes, it's weird. It's just how it's used.

Western use doesn't really care as much about the length. The style just has connotations of innocence, feigned or real.

edited 3rd Apr '12 10:42:28 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
Cure Candy
Shima wins the thread.
 82 ccoa, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 10:44:24 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
Thank you, that's what I've been asking for.

So what we need is to spin off the Western version of the trope, because it is different enough from simply Stocking Filler.

We also need that on the page itself, because it's currently missing, making A and B interchangeable.

EDIT: Should we steal Golden Thigh Ratio as the name of the Western trope? I think it's a rather clever bit of Genius Bonus, myself, and, as noted by Playboy, the West does acknowledge that there is a sweet spot in the stocking/skin/skirt ratio, it's just not as... precise.

edited 3rd Apr '12 10:50:14 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 83 Catalogue, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 11:14:10 AM from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
Is it possible to use the trope without the grades?
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
 84 lu 127, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 11:15:39 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
[up][up] I think that name is good. smile

[up] Why not use them? I know we opt not to, but in this case, I think it's the most efficient thing.
小さく揺れた向日葵
 85 shimaspawn, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 11:15:59 AM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
In the Western senses, yes. In the Eastern one, not so much, no.

The difference is there, but people keep eating away at it because they find the idea that one grade is sexier than the other creepy. What we really mean though is that it's the difference in character type. Not reaction to that character.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 86 Catalogue, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 11:31:54 AM from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
[up][up] No, I mean in fiction, not in our page. I mean, is it possible for it to not conform to that personality stereotyping?

If so, we need to note in the page how valid is the grading thing. Probably/often/widespread/especially in X/etc.
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
 87 lebrel, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 12:24:17 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
If the Playboy cartoon is the one I'm thinking of (can't find it online), I don't think it applies, since it shows skirts with slits up the side which expose the top of the stocking, which would be a combination of She's Got Legs and Stocking Stuffer but not ZR.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Cure Candy
[up] Unsure of what your talking about there but there are many ways to set some varitiy to Zettai Ryouiki with extravagant designs combined with Thigh-high bootsangled Really freaken extravagent (might be close to NSFW) White (the really innocent ones) black colored (most common)

Usually with clips like [1] its adult usage only.

edited 3rd Apr '12 12:36:51 PM by Raso

 89 lebrel, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 12:42:13 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] I'm talking about the Playboy cartoon mentioned on the ZR page; I can't find a copy online, but if it's the one I've seen it involves dresses that show the stocking top because they are slit up the side like this, not because the skirt is shorter than the stockings.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
Cure Candy
Oh that.... yeah that is something different than this, (it was quite common in WW2 era films IIRC) also those Fishnet Stockings are something different from this too a whole other side of kinky.

edited 3rd Apr '12 1:22:06 PM by Raso

 91 Catalogue, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 1:34:50 PM from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
So what's the position of these grades in the trope page? A "frequent twist on the trope"?
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
Note: the 'clips' are garters which are popular in western Stocking Filler and why don't we have fishnet stockings?! That is a big thing.*

  • Maybe only in America.

 93 lebrel, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 1:47:42 PM from Basement, Ivory Tower
Tsundere pet.
[up] Fishnets is part of Stocking Filler. I suppose you could propose a split to a separate trope if you feel there's enough examples.
Calling someone a pedant is an automatic Insult Backfire. Real pedants will be flattered.
 94 shimaspawn, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 1:54:46 PM from Here and Now Relationship Status: In your bunk
[up][up][up] No, the point of the grades is that different lengths and variations are associated with different personality types.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

-Philip K. Dick
 95 Catalogue, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 2:06:54 PM from where the good times are
A pocketful of saudade.
But it's not always like that. So is it like, a loose convention?
The words above are to be read as if they are narrated by Morgan Freeman.
 96 ccoa, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 2:15:29 PM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
If we're defining the trope as a expository costume rather than "only" a fanservice trope, then examples that don't fit and aren't Playing With the trope probably should be axed.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Cure Candy
[up] It is both though.

Soft Split everything?

  • Grade S
  • Grade A
  • Grade B
  • Other

(other examples will be rare at least in anime probably filled with One Time Only examples and direct pandering, B will be by far the biggest section..)

I am just inclined to leave it alone though...... Rewrite the description a bit with a bit more clarity on stuff and a few rewritten sentences and done. Let the examples state their type.

edited 3rd Apr '12 2:31:14 PM by Raso

Maybe we should use personality types as divisions rather than "grades"?

 99 Marq FJA, Tue, 3rd Apr '12 3:48:28 PM from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
O' Allah, save Egypt
[up] Grade A and B are more of a personality "sliding scale" between innocence and sexual aggressiveness, to be honest. Grade S is only given when the personality is explicitly a Tsundere type and it's combined with Girlish Pigtails.
Ash-shaʻb yurīd isqāṭ ḥukm al-ʻaskar
 100 Do Know Butchie, Wed, 4th Apr '12 4:55:38 AM from San Juan, Puerto Rico.
Don't call me Hikaru.
So if we do end up splitting the examples, with "Zettai Ryouiki" being the trope page for "stocking lengths as shorthand for specific personalities", would those examples be replicated in a page that doesn't include that specific aspect? And where would that leave Japanese examples like Faye Valentine from Cowboy Bebop, whose use of the trope has more to do with Stocking Filler than the whole "budding sexuality" symbolism? And while we're on that, where would examples—mostly Western—where the look is associated with stuff like prostitution/sluttiness (see: Pretty Woman) go *? Or are we actually thinking of axing examples instead of splitting them?

Being in the west the concept is generally "those are clothes we put on our feet and legs" making it no more trope worthy than say a sweaters or T-shirts, [...]

I don't think this is true, actually—or else we wouldn't have gotten articles linking Emma Roberts' use of thigh-high stockings+short pants in specific connection with Julia Roberts' use of thigh-high boots+skirt in Pretty Woman. It might be more common than it once was, but it's still something you very deliberately choose to wear, and doing so is still considered notable.

Page Action: Zettai Ryouiki Round 3
4th Apr '12 8:57:38 AM
What would be the best way to fix the page?
At issue:
Not all options are mutually exclusive, but some are. Exercise judgement.
Total posts: 263
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