Duplicate Trope: Asian Speekee Engrish

This painful, painful page is a duplicate of Japanese Ranguage.

Hrm... doing my best to look beyond how hideously racist both pages are (neither needs any self-demonstration... Christ, that embarrasses me).

But I do see the distinction that's theoretically being attempted. Japanese Ranguage is specifically about the L/R confusion that's most commonly indicative of Japanese people speaking European languages (to be fair, I have heard Asians of other nationalities have some trouble with the two sounds as well, although it seems to be more pronounced in Japanese nationals). Meanwhile, this trope is about the odd syntax and stereotypical accent that supposedly is common amongst most natives of Asia (while I can't say that I've never heard it, I certainly have never heard it as strongly in Real Life as I have in movies or TV shows). The two can overlap, but I think that they are distinct sister tropes.

That said, I don't care if everyone's a little bit racist, that doesn't mean the wiki has to be. I say we zap the Asian caricature on both pages.

It's Korean that mixes up R (technically an alveolar tap) and L, Japanese is a bit different (it has an alveolar flap, which occasionally surfaces as one or the other depending on context). Heck, my native language (Vietnamese) does this too, but with L and N and dropping ending S on conjugated verbs.

Is this Missing Supertrope Syndrome? Do we have a trope for when non-native speakers mix up sounds in other languages?

Let's just zap the self demonstration, say the 1st is an old sterotype (rarely used nowadays) although sometimes the 2nd is used though.

We could also call Asian Spekee English or whatever Asian Accent Stereotype or something.

How is it racist to document and demonstrate this trope? And what's wrong with the self-demonstration, given that there is a plain English version available in case anyone has a problem understanding the self-demonstrating part?

If there is anything wrong with the page, it is the implication that it is somehow racist to show a non-fluent speaker of a language speaking the language poorly.

edited 30th Mar '12 6:30:43 AM by Catbert

Documenting the trope isn't racist. Demonstrating it? That's racist. And that's my huge problem with both pages.

Hmm... we probably are missing the supertrope about issues non-native speakers have with other languages. I spent three months learning an accent, so I am familiar with the issues involved.

For renaming the trope in question, I like Asian Accent Stereotype. It gets the point across without looking like we're mocking Asians that haven't achieved fluency in English.

The fact that it also can be difficult for folks to potentially read the entry is also a valid reason - that's basically the reason that Lolcats actually got locked. Too many people tried to make it self-demonstrating at the cost of readability.

edited 30th Mar '12 7:44:28 AM by 32_Footsteps

While I do believe it is racist (I find that racism isn't always hoods and flaming crosses, but subtle things as well) the self demonstration also makes it harder to understand the trope easily, and isn't needed at all. The non self demonstrating makes more sense.

"Demonstrating it? That's racist"

In what way?

The trope is about language, therefore without at least some example of the type of language that is being discussed, you aren't going to be able to understand the trope. Idealy we would even have an audio sample, but we aren't set up for that.

The fact that the self-demonstrating section is hard to read is the entire point. Any complaints about it being difficult to read are entirely undone by the fact that there is a plain English version readily available.

Wait, you need me to explain why imitating a racist stereotype is racist?

...

I'm not paid enough for this.

Canada Eh ends every line with "eh". Is that being racist too?

Canadians are not a race.

The main point here is not whether it's racist or not. It's that the self-demonstrating aspect of Asian Speekee Engrish obscures the information we're trying to get across. It's trying so hard to be clever, it's almost impossible to understand.

I'm giving it a plain English rewrite right now.

edited 30th Mar '12 10:49:28 AM by Madrugada

There is already a plain English version on the page. Nothing needs to be rewritten and no information is obscured.

Self demonstrating anything does not go on the main page we have a self demonstrating namespace for that. (although this one I am very much against giving it such a page... This one is just as bad as Me Love You Long Time...).

edited 30th Mar '12 9:53:58 AM by Raso

And just put the plain english ONLY on the page, so it's clear. A clearer name would be better too.

Isn't the Self Demonstrating index only for articles that self-demonstrate?

The Self-Demonstrating namespace is for Self-demonstrating articles. It is perfectly acceptable to make a self-demonstrating version of a Main page that is written in clear English and to put it in that namespace.

A wiki reader should not be forced to dig down to the bottom of the description in order to find a clear explanation of the trope.

Now. please go back to the question that needs to be answered here: Is this a duplicate trope to Japanese Ranguage or not?

edited 30th Mar '12 10:48:13 AM by Madrugada

And taking the mod hat off, I'd say that it is not a duplicate. It's a much broader trope, and the supertrope to Japanese Ranguage.

I feel like we need a supertrope to the the supertrope—a trope that encompasses difficulty in learning and/or speaking another lanaguage. There's a trope about the German W (can't remember the name of it) that would fall under that, for example.

My view:

Missing Language Supertrope—-> A.S.E.—-> Japanese Ranguage

Probably the stereotype of how Chinese people speak Japanese would also be under this trope we don't have.

I'm a little vauge about how "People that can't speak a language well don't speak it well" or "People have accents other than American accents" is even a trope. Me messing up Spanish isn't a trope. Why should a speaker not fluent in English making mistakes be a trope?

I'd argue that this is a sister trope to the one about L/R confusion.

Quite simply, if you consider this to be about the syntax and grammar issues shown by native speakers of Asiatic languages, it's related but completely distinct from the phonetic issues involved with L/R confusion. Thus, it'd be possible to demonstrate the former and not the latter with using the correct letters in every instance but writing/speaking in that particular stilted style. Similarly, it's possible to have impeccable grammar and syntax, yet have issues with L and R. It's possible to demonstrate both simultaneously, but the fact that each can manifest completely distinct from the other indicates that one is not a subtrope of the other.

I'm reminded of an issue that I have with L/R confusion, but it's more with how the trope gets applied in works - I think I'll take that to an appropriate analysis page.

The mistakes are repeated in the same way in works, and also are lampshaded. If character X speaks perfect english, but pretends to ASE to make bigger tips or to appear harmless, that's a trope.

Or if a parent speaks this way, and their child is embarrassed... you see what I mean?

edited 30th Mar '12 11:37:16 AM by animeg3282