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Total posts: [43]
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Needs Help: Argentina Is Naziland get usage counts

 1 lu 127, Wed, 28th Mar '12 9:25:36 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
I have no idea why this has only one example. It looks like a terrible case of a premature launch. Maybe it's Too Rare to Trope?
小さく揺れた向日葵
 2 Septimus Heap, Wed, 28th Mar '12 9:27:07 AM from Zurich, Switzerland Relationship Status: Mu
A Wizard boy
One day old and no YKTTW, for the record.

 3 ccoa, Wed, 28th Mar '12 9:32:28 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
There's quite a bit of political rambling in it, too.

I'd say cut and sent to YKTTW. If it's truly a trope, then it needs examples. If it's not a trope or too rare to trope, then a trip though YKTTW should reveal that.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
 4 32 Footsteps, Wed, 28th Mar '12 9:43:37 AM from Just north of Arkham Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Think of the mooks!
While I don't recall which off the top of my head, I have heard several stories that have used this trope.

That said, I feel like the best idea would be to expand it while making it more generalized - about a locale that becomes a haven for Retired Monsters. I feel like restricting it to Nazis living in Argentina is way too narrow.
Reminder: Offscreen Villainy does not count towards Complete Monster.
 5 Silent Reverence, Wed, 28th Mar '12 10:33:41 AM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
The actual tropable restriction is South America Is Naziland, which is sort of an equivalent of The Canarias Are A Fiscal Paradise and has a very distinct plot and setting meaning (establishes the "Poor World" aka anywhere south of the Economic Equator as not only a less developed and hectic but also a less policed place). But this needs to reYKTTW to get an actual proper definition, examples, cleaning, etc.
 6 Madrugada, Wed, 28th Mar '12 11:02:53 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
Have to agree. Cut this one but send it through YKTTW as South America Is A Haven For Nazis or something. For one thing, limiting it to Argentina eliminates one of the oldest examples — (perhaps the Ur example in fiction and) certainly one of the Trope Makers and Trope Codifiers: Ira Levin's 1976The Boys from Brazil, which places the fugitive Nazis in Paraguay and Brazil, rather than Argentina.

edited 28th Mar '12 1:21:39 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Burn
As an Argentinian, I understand this is a prominent stereotype about our country (With some definite truth to it), so it probably shows up in more works than Xmen: First Class. However, I can only think of one other example that's specific to Argentina.

  • In The Onion book, Our Dumb World, the section on Argentina says it's home to many rare and endangered species of wildlife, including the escaped German war criminal.

I like the idea of expanding it to other South American countries if it will increase the examples list.

edited 28th Mar '12 11:06:24 AM by Scardoll

I agree that this needs to be better written and needs to be sent to YKTTW for more examples.

However, representing Argentina in particular as a haven for ex-Nazis is a trope and has some basis in Real Life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pursuit_of_Nazi_collaborators#Argentina

  • Argentina was a popular destination for Nazis. Declassified files show how Buenos Aires helped establish a network to rescue collaborators and Nazis from post war Europe. The network issued false paperwork to help Nazis escape the Allies, via the port of Genoa and finally by ship to Argentina. Once in Argentina Juan Perón's government protected them and they settled in the southern regions of the country. In early October 1999 Nazi hunter Efraim Zuroff tracked Ustasha Dinko Šakić, the former commandant of Jasenovac concentration camp (nicknamed the "Auschwitz of the Balkans"). Sakic had lived in Argentina for more than 50 years. He was extradited to Croatia and sentenced by a Zagreb court to 20 years' imprisonment for his crimes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/world/argentina-a-haven-for-nazis-balks-at-opening-its-files.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm

  • According to records Mr. Gońi has uncovered here and abroad, Perón's government, which was in power from 1946 to 1955, shepherded nearly 300 war criminals into the country.... Besides such notorious figures as Adolf Eichmann, Josef Mengele and Klaus Barbie, dozens of French, Belgian, Italian, Croatian and Slovak fascists, many of them Nazi collaborators sought in their home nations, were also admitted, some under aliases, others under their real names.

edited 28th Mar '12 11:06:24 AM by Catbert

 9 Madrugada, Wed, 28th Mar '12 11:08:58 AM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
But Brazil and Paraguay were also popular destinations. There's no reason to limit this trope to Argentina when that means we'd need to make another one for "Fugitive Nazis that went to South America but not to Argentina" when the two tropes would be identical in the way they're used.

edited 28th Mar '12 11:10:07 AM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
 10 ccoa, Wed, 28th Mar '12 11:11:56 AM from the Sleeping Giant
Ravenous Sophovore
I think mentioning which countries in South America are the most likely to get this trope would do the job.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
[up]Seems like a reasonable approach. Also, this is one trope that does need a Real Life section to provide context, with a list of actual escaped Nazis that have been found in various South American countries.

edited 28th Mar '12 11:13:56 AM by Catbert

 12 Silent Reverence, Wed, 28th Mar '12 11:32:18 AM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
Agree. All of Argentina, Chile, Brazil and Paraguay have had notable Nazi pursuit cases, I'm inclined to think Ecuador and Bolivia have too but I'm not that well informed. The thing is, it does makes sense given the history and timeframes involved.
 13 lu 127, Wed, 28th Mar '12 11:34:49 AM from the Forest of Thorns Relationship Status: Loves me...loves me not
Right. I'm all for including all those places.

Thing is, I'm completely ignorant of almost anything pertaining South American history post WWII, so someone else will have to handle the YKTTW.
小さく揺れた向日葵
Bit of a side note, but why oh why do people include folders for a single freaking example! It is so annoying! It is one thing if you have folderized everything and most of your folders have lots of examples and one folder has only a few examples, but if all your folders have only one or two examples it is just plain ugly, not to mention being a waste of time having to open the folders to read something.

 15 Deboss, Wed, 28th Mar '12 12:00:53 PM from Awesomeville Texas
I see the Awesomeness.
A) folders are officially preferred over AC script.

B) there should be a folder control that lets you open all of them at once

C) you can set your folders to open automatically

 16 Madrugada, Wed, 28th Mar '12 12:11:19 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
I don't see why it needs a real life section at all. The fact that it's a trope because it did occur in Real Life can be noted in the definition. A list of who went (or was suspected to go) where won't serve any purpose in explaining the trope, and will invite Natter as people feel the need to add details and speculation and such.
...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Not An Avatar
Real life examples are what inspired the trope, so it's useful to have them. Cutting RL examples before we even try them is a bit overzealous. See the this wikipedia category for examples.

"South American Nazi Haven/Hideout" sounds like a better name to me.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
 18 Madrugada, Wed, 28th Mar '12 1:13:27 PM Relationship Status: In season
Zzzzzzzzzz
But we aren't about documenting Real Life examples. Yes, Real Life inspired the trope. That doesn't mean that we need a Real Life section for the page. Real Life inspired a lot of tropes. They won't do anything to clarify what the trope is any better than the fictional examples will.

^ You edited your post. Blah.

Anyway, pointing at Wikipedia as a reason we should have a real life section is non-sequitur — it doesn't follow. The two wikis are about different things, with different standards for what should be included. Wikipedia wants to document everything. We want to document the ways tropes are used in fiction and storytelling. There's no need to duplicate an entire wikipedia category here.

Regarding "without even giving it a chance", we have past experience with similar pages, and there's no reason to believe this one will go any differently. The real life section tends to become a natter-dump and overwhelms the fictional examples, then ends up being cut.

edited 28th Mar '12 1:20:16 PM by Madrugada

...if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you for it.
Real life examples should go in the main description. Just one or two.

 20 Silent Reverence, Wed, 28th Mar '12 1:19:13 PM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
Or we can just link to the Wikipedia page on the matter. But yeah, having the RL inspirations in the main page won't do. If they had to go somewhere, it'd be Analysis.
  • A) folders are officially preferred over AC script.

Policy or no policy folders for a single example are stupid, ugly and distracting unless you have multiple folders where at least some of the sections have enough examples to make foldering worth while.

  • B) there should be a folder control that lets you open all of them at once

Which means that you have to add an extra step to see examples, and will be disappointed when you open up a folder expecting a substatial section of examples and see just a single example.

  • C) you can set your folders to open automatically

Which defeats the purpose of having folders.

  • They won't do anything to clarify what the trope is any better than the fictional examples will.

They will help understand why the trope exists. Also, this isn't exactly a controversial issue. It isn't like tropes where it is matter of opinion whether or not Hillary Clinton is a Ritch Bitch or something. It is a matter of documented fact that certain individuals were found in certain countries.

edited 28th Mar '12 2:08:48 PM by Catbert

 22 Silent Reverence, Wed, 28th Mar '12 2:10:26 PM from 3 tiles right 1 tile up
adopting kitteh
Setting up the folder even if for a single example serves various purposes, the main one preventing that other people have to come and fix it up later. Also, uniformity. And also, what's wrong with a single example in a section? That I know an example of a section for a trope does not mean I know all of the examples in a section so as to add them at the same time. There is such thing as Wiki Magic. </derail>

The fact that those people were in those places might be all well documented, but it is the RL part. It'd go in the trope page if the fact of documentation itself is portrayed in media.
  • Setting up the folder even if for a single example serves various purposes, the main one preventing that other people have to come and fix it up later.

The best way to display information is so that it is all immediately available without having to waste extra steps. You should set up folders and only when there are enough examples to make it necessary to prevent a Wall of Text style overload.

Having folders for very few examples creates the expectation that there are actually enough examples that foldering was necessary to keep them organized and avoid massive Wall of Text problems.

That expectation is disappointed when you open all the folders and find out that there are maybe three examples on the entire page.

  • Also, uniformity.

It isn't uniform because not every page does it. In fact, because most pages don't do it for small numbers of examples, but only put in folders when there are a large number of examples, it is breaking from uniformity and therefore creates false expectations.

Not An Avatar
Often, listing real life examples are both inflammatory and unnecessary. Tropes where the fictional examples are drawn from real events are exactly where real life examples are actually useful.

I admit that it could draw natter, though. I don't think anyone's going to jump in and defend Nazis, but I could see some Misplaced Nationalism from people taking it as a knock on their country. So long as the description adequately covers the real-life circumstances that inspired the trope, I'd be okay with not having a section for real life examples. It's no big deal, I just have a pet peeve for tropes that ignore over their historical context and treat fiction as existing in a vacuum.
We're not just men of science, we're men of TROPE!
 25 Martello, Wed, 28th Mar '12 3:52:02 PM from Black River, NY
Hammer of the Pervs
I believe Argentina is where Hellboy found former Thule Society Nazi mad scientist Herman von Klempt. Not sure, I'm on a long drive so I don't have the book to hand.

edited 28th Mar '12 3:52:41 PM by Martello

"Did anybody invent this stuff on purpose?" - Phillip Marlowe on tequila, Finger Man by Raymond Chandler.
Total posts: 43
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